Beethoven "Für Elise": Some Advice

Hi Gianni, what you are talking about is the critical part of "Für Elise" for those who have been playing for a short time. The choice of fingering is a very personal matter that depends on hand by hand. I also felt comfortable with the suggested fingering! As for the descending scale, you resolve it by articulating well. My advice, however, is to steal with your eyes. In my opinion, one of the best versions of "Für Elise" on YouTube is the one by our The Simon at the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQTYB9osOGw

I noticed that he has excellent technique in his other interpretations as well. Happy stealing.

Open content (youtube)

Knowing what one is studying always helps

http://www.musilosophy.it/analisi-per-elisa.html

Marta23 wrote:

Knowing what one is studying always helps

 

http://www.musilosop...-per-elisa.html

I read:

Warnings regarding the sheet music for Für Elise by Ludwig van Beethoven

Be careful that fingering is missing and that some notes that must be played with the left hand are written in treble clef. Good luck and study it first hands separate, then hands together. Do not rush and play the difficult parts especially well. Bye, have a good playing session!

... can be useful

Gianni22 wrote:

I read:

Warnings regarding the sheet music for Für Elise by Ludwig van Beethoven

Be careful that the fingering is missing and that some notes that should be played with the left hand are written in Treble Clef. Good luck, study it first hands separately then hands together. Do not rush and play the difficult parts especially well. Bye, have a good playing session!

... it might be useful

Was it a joke?

... because:

In my modest opinion, Beethoven was the greatest composer for piano, even better than Chopin and Mozart (referring only to the piano).

Hi everyone, sorry but I don't understand the point of the replies from Marta23, Gianni22 and Crazypiano, perhaps I wasn't clear myself; anyway, I have read the piece carefully and aspects like those indicated on the site (which I had already read some time ago) did not escape me, and I will add that no one is questioning Beethoven's value—I adore him and, if one could put it this way, "I have worn out my hard drive" from listening to Arrau performing the 32 sonatas.

My topic arises from the need to have a discussion on the technical solution of that/those passage(s); I would like to understand if I have undertaken a solution that can lead to good results and if alternative, perhaps better, solutions exist. That's all.

Bye

Gianni

In my case it's simple, knowing how the melody of the piece is constructed avoids having to think necessarily note by note, but rather having a higher-level vision that also helps in writing a more effective fingering.

The fact that you already knew that link was unknown to me ... the fact remains that before writing the fingering, perhaps you should get an idea of how you would like to execute the phrasing... the rest is "relatively" a consequence.

I hope I have been clearer

Stefanus wrote:

Was it a joke?

But this is a useful suggestion

"study it first hands separate then hands together"

In addition to: "my teacher advised me to change fingering and to always use 1-5, while for the scale no particular exercise... just go slowly."

... going slowly is not everything

Sorry Gianni, but Marta understood instantly

A me fanno studiare spesso a mani separate ... mi thought it useful to point it out to you, I only mentioned in passing a suggestion that I found useful.

Isn't "Per Elisa" a bit too daring for a beginner?

I will look at the fingering, but in the meantime, I ask you what you know about variations? Working tools that can help a lot in passages like scales, arpeggios, etc.

I haven't written any fingering (yet), I took the one that is there and anyway it seems to work; the problem isn't the fingering but the technical solution to resolve the passage, the technical solution is not necessarily strictly related to the phrasing, the important thing is what we produce as a result.

Anyway thanks.

Gianni

Hi Frank, it's certainly a bit bold but as I was saying, the work is starting to show results; after all, I've been studying it for two months along with other more educational material, and keeping in mind that I study one hour a day, it stands to reason that it will take me some time... but I'm in no hurry. Anyway, the passage in question, as I was saying, becomes difficult when increasing the speed and tending towards the ideal one, i.e., the one that makes the phrase sound as it should.

I don't know the variations, or at least I don't know how to associate specific exercises with this term, but in addition to Sandor's advice, I am also using the chord attack technique and the parallel groupings suggested by Chang for the scale that closes the groupings of four, and there are results; however, I would like a comparison with someone who has been studying for years and perhaps has even played "Für Elise."

Bye

Gianni

Dear Gianni, I have been a bit caught up with the LAB publications regarding the piece for pf ... so I haven't looked at your proposal in pdf.

That being said:

gianni69 wrote:

I don't know the variations

They are a good tool for those with technical difficulties; if done decently, they help to wake up the fingers.

In this specific case, rhythmic variations would suffice, simply applying a French pattern and then a Lombard pattern to the problematic passage.

This is very basic; indicate the number of critical measures, and we'll see what can be done.

gianni69 wrote:

Sandor's advice

A bit dated by now, but a good text.

I am also interested in this piece, I have two doubts regarding it:

- At what tempo is the piece performed?

- Is the cantabile performed at a faster tempo than the initial theme, or is it just my impression while listening to some recordings?

Marta23 wrote:

However, this is a useful suggestion

"study it first hands separate then hands together"

I thought it was a joke, because studying hands separate seems like the bare minimum to do even to be able to understand the correct dynamics. If one plays hands together, one only thinks about the melody and neglects the left hand which, instead, most of the time also hides the melody or otherwise harmonic elements of fundamental importance. Practically all the music of Mozart, of Chopin comes to mind, not to mention Bach where the dialogue between the right and left hand is fundamental. How do you think it is possible not to study hands separate? That is why the phrase you cited seemed very obvious to me, if not outright banal.

Stefanus wrote:

How do you think it is possible not to study hands separately?

For someone who is in their second month of pf and is venturing into Per Elisa, it might not be so trivial... and above all, who said that studying hands separately is always necessary? For a slice of the repertoire (which you have also cited) it is almost useless if not harmful

Marta23 wrote:

For a slice of the repertoire (which, among other things, you cited) it is almost useless if not harmful

I agree and indeed

Stefanus wrote:

not to mention Bach where the dialogue between the right and left hand is fundamental.

The dialogue is between the voices where it "happens" that the hands divide parts of a single voice. For fugues, for example, I prefer studying by voice and their combinations rather than studying with hands separate, which, if needed, can only serve to resolve technical problems ... but not musical ones.

Marta23 wrote:

For someone who is in their second month of piano and is venturing into Per Elisa, it might not be so trivial... and above all, who said that studying hands separately is always necessary? For a slice of the repertoire (which you mentioned, by the way), it is almost useless if not harmful.

I disagree, studying hands separately is never harmful... For what reason should it be?

Frank wrote:

I agree and in fact

The dialogue is between the voices where it "happens" that the hands divide parts of the same voice. For fugues, for example, I prefer studying by voice and their combinations rather than studying hands separately, which, if needed, can only serve to resolve technical problems... but not musical ones.

I agree regarding Bach, but it's not that studying hands separately only serves to resolve technical problems. Chopin's nocturnes, the Ballades, Mozart's sonatas contain very important elements in the left hand that one does not get into the habit of considering as one should if there isn't a scrupulous study hands separately, which makes the difference. In another post, Chopin's studies were discussed; even in these, beyond technical difficulties, there is a need to conduct a study on the left hand that is also musical in nature.

Stefanus wrote:

I thought it was a joke, because studying hands separately seems to me the bare minimum to do even to be able to understand the correct dynamics. If one plays hands together, one only thinks about the singing and neglects the left hand, which instead most of the time also hides the singing or otherwise harmonic elements of fundamental importance. Practically all the music of Mozart, of Chopin comes to mind, not to mention Bach where the dialogue between the right and left hand is fundamental. How do you think it is possible not to study hands separately? That's why the phrase you cited seemed very obvious to me, if not outright trivial.

Let's just say that studying hands separately is not exactly trivial; the argument in this post proves it. Sometimes, when possible, one does without it even to save time.

No, excuse me... but I was only talking about Bach... please re-read more carefully. In fact, I was suggesting it by excluding Bach, where instead it seemed like manna from heaven... but that's not the case, or rather... it depends on the pieces, but since almost all of Bach's are contrapuntal, they run into the problems described by Frank. Actually, it is thanks to a suggestion (from Carlos and RStrauss, if I am not mistaken) in this sense that my Bach has flourished again; I too wasn't studying voice by voice at first... but now....