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Can art contribute ... ?

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Frank

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Opening post by Frank

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http://costruiresumacerie.org/2015/01/11/agli-studenti-dei-conservatori-e-ora-che-combattiate-la-guerra-contro-gli-integralisti/

I must say that several times I have seen the link to this article pass by and the title did not inspire me much (which I did not intentionally include) because in general I have read the most contradictory comments on this well-known issue. "I am", then "I am not", then I agree and then I disagree and then.. etc. The most disconcerting thing is that it happened to me that in some cases it was the same people who had gone through this type of wavering (more or less conscious). Therefore, I hadn't read it yet!

Since it was later suggested to me by a friend who rarely suggests things without sense, I ventured to read it.

Perhaps art can in some measure (which?) help and between the lines I read a beautiful message regardless of the cause; personally speaking, I wouldn't have addressed it only to conservatory students (at the title level)... but on a large scale.

So I am sharing the link with you, but what do you think?

http://costruiresumacerie.org/2015/01/11/agli-studenti-dei-conservatori-e-ora-che-combattiate-la-guerra-contro-gli-integralisti/

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Reply 2 by Oracolo

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Let's start with the musicians! And in the beginning was the Word, which is music, not to be forgotten!!!

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Reply 3 by Rotore

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There are realities where, for example, the performance of Wagner's music is prohibited, for the most defensible reasons. An example to say that when extra-musical factors intervene, a cultural stratification aimed at "automatic" associations that create stereotypes... which then often become archetypes, might not be sufficient for a healthy relationship between musicians who should in fact communicate with listeners and who are often able to be harnessed in "cages.".

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Reply 4 by danielescarpetti

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Many years ago in a music forum, while defining Art, I wrote that it is a non-economic activity that, by connecting with the evolution of aesthetics, seeks to represent the reality surrounding humanity. Good heavens! My statement provoked a hornet's nest of controversy aimed at asserting the “neutrality” of art regarding human ideas and philosophies.

At that time I had not yet read Milan Kundera, but now that I have, I think I must correct my statement in this manner: those who practice Art, more than just representing reality, pursue «an intention to know, to understand, to grasp this or that aspect of reality».

It is obvious: this definition, which partly corrects the more absolute one I expressed some years ago, would not satisfy the supporters of the “neutrality” of Art, but what seems to me entirely evident is instead that man, from his first graffiti made in caves, sought to narrate his life and, therefore, to interpret the reality that surrounded him.

With Art, the human being carries out that activity that brings him closer to the absolute more than any other, seeking to reach an unattainable degree of beauty, perfection, and truth, and, if I think of the many masterpieces of every art, I cannot but agree with all this.

Milan Kundera also states that «What will one day remain of Europe is not its repetitive history which, in itself, represents no value. The only thing that has any probability of remaining is the history of its arts». And here lies the point that connects with what was written in the post that you, Frank, cite: human thought, whether religious or political in nature, is always relative. All that remains of man as an imperishable warning is his Art—the true Art—which is never worn away by the passage of time. And it gives me immense pleasure that it was the great writer himself who made this concept explicit on the occasion of the award presented to him in Jerusalem a few years ago in his acceptance speech: «A beautiful Jewish proverb says: Man proposes, God laughs.(...) But why does God laugh looking at man who thinks? Because the more men think, the more one man's thought moves away from another's.(...) But man becomes an individual precisely when he loses the certainty of truth and the unanimous consensus of others... art (was) born as an echo of God's laughter and (...) has known how to create that fascinating imaginary space in which no one possesses the truth and in which everyone has the right to be understood.(...) But it is time for me to stop. I was about to forget that God laughs when he sees me thinking».

Milan Kundera is a writer of both novels and essays and, in both genres, one of the main protagonists is great Western music, this because his father was a musician and he himself, before becoming a writer, was one.

«(...) About a year before my father's death, I was taking our usual walk around the block with him and we heard songs from every direction. (...) My father stopped, looked up at the device from which the noise was coming, and I understood that he wanted to communicate something very important to me. He made a great effort to concentrate, to succeed in expressing what he had in mind, then slowly and with difficulty said: “The stupidity of music”!"

What did my father mean by these words? Did he perhaps want to insult music, which was the passion of his life? No. I believe he wanted to tell me that there exists an original stage of music, a stage prior to its history, prior to the first questioning, prior to the first reflection, prior to the beginning of the play with a motif and a theme. In this rudimentary stage of music (music without thought) the stupidity inherent in the human being is reflected. For music to rise above this primitive stupidity, an immense effort of mind and heart was required, and this has been a splendid curve that has dominated from above centuries of European history and reached its maximum point of trajectory before extinguishing, like the rocket of a firework.(...)».

This is an excerpt from the novel “The Book of Laughter and Forgetting” which, besides representing one of its most important moments, expresses in an absolutely shareable way what is the sad sunset of “learned music” that began as early as the twentieth century.

Great Art music is increasingly ghettoized, both that which we usually call classical and, even more so, that which is modern and contemporary. This is precisely because in our current era humanity is returning to an original stage of stupidity.

On the other hand, as the Sicilian composer Salvatore Sciarrino reminds us in his book-lecture “The Figures of Music from Beethoven to Today”, the masses have always been refractory to Art, with the only exceptions being Greek tragedy and nineteenth-century melodrama. This is because: «(...)"

Two lines of reasoning, that of Milan Kundera and that of Salvatore Sciarrino, with many convergences, even if the Czech writer actually paints a more apocalyptic scenario regarding art and music in particular. Unfortunately, for the most part, this is true: while it is true that the masses have always been far from art, this was also true because they were deliberately kept ignorant by those who held secular or religious power.

Today, a greater general level of culture should have presumed a closer approach to the Arts; instead, in an era where so many people have been able to acquire such a high degree of knowledge, this has not come to pass because, in a society based on profit, power has moved away from the cult of Art. The result is living in one of the most mediocre periods in human history, and this fact is reminded to us by Milan Kundera in “The Curtain”: having lived in the Eastern communist world and having had to flee to the West, returning to his native soil in 1989 in the aftermath of the fall of the Berlin Wall, he bitterly noted through the words of a friend that: «(...) What you see here, in fact, is the restoration of a capitalist society, in all its stupid and cruel aspects, with all the vulgarity of swindlers and the nouveau riche. The idiocy of commerce has replaced ideological idiocy. (...)».

This is why I say that, for me, what is written in the post you proposed is pure gold.

Milan KunderaMilan KunderaMilan KunderaIl libro del riso e dell'oblioSalvatore SciarrinoLe figure della musica da Beethoven a oggiMilan KunderaSalvatore SciarrinoIl siparioMilan Kundera

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Reply 5 by LucaCavaliere

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Yes. It is certainly right to take a step further and reach out on a wider scale, not just to young musicians.

However, as it is written, it more closely hits the target of a limited circle of listeners. A bit like the note of demerit, which the more generic it is, the less effective it becomes. Unfortunately.

«Perhaps art can to a certain extent (in what way?)»

A thought comes to mind regarding the plurality of interpretations and added meanings that a work of art evokes (the greater and larger it is).

And therefore > plurality of interpretations > plurality of readings and views > plurality in art, which becomes a "gymnasium" for thought approaching issues: a plurality of views also in life, opposing restrictive and fundamentalist tendencies... Perhaps to this extent.

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Reply 6 by thallo

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you know how I feel about the ethical influence of art... in this case, moreover, I have rarely known a place more closed and sectarian than the conservatory. The image in the article itself, a rifle that ends with an electric guitar, makes me laugh because there are still very few conservatories where electric guitar is taught! And that has truly broken linguistic, cultural, and religious barriers.

In the '50s-'60s, more committed "high" music found itself, precisely because of its commitment, avoiding mass impact. That is to say, for example, if there is a less proletarian music, it is that of Luigi Nono, a prominent member of the PCI. The idea that the market is a place of "selling out" and not of knowledge has led to the obvious consequence where large parts of the world have never had access to a certain type of art. And these large parts of the world include Italy.

We continue more and more to entrench ourselves in our values, to repeat them to ourselves in whispers, to say "we are strong, we are cool, our art will save the world," without understanding that all this should be said to others, because we already know our values, and often we misunderstand them.

Now, to oversimplify things (because I am oversimplifying), there is a Hip Hop scene in the Middle East, there is a Hip Hop scene in Africa, there is a Hip Hop scene in France. Hip hop, in its various forms, has become in recent years THE committed AND commercial music, in the sense that it travels through commercial channels, bringing profit to those who produce it and, therefore, skillfully bypassing institutional censorship mechanisms (money opens all doors, even in a good way). If someone today truly wants to make an international ethical discourse with music, they should find THESE channels, not organize concerts of Beethoven's Ninth around the world. And I don't say this to belittle Beethoven, I say it because the moment we turn music into a museum, we decree its death. If we give music an "ethical" value, then we must give it to all types of music, and seek in a certain sense the most appropriate one for every single battle.

THIS decreases the number of fundamentalists, precisely because it makes them/us a little less whole and a little more fragmented.

And to begin this fragmentation, I propose some listening...

DAM. Find information online and within the video data. They are an hip hop group of Palestinian Israeli citizens.

El General, a Tunisian rapper arrested during the "jasmine revolution" in Tunisia.

Logic, an African-American rapper, who hosts Shadia Mansour in one of his productions, now a famous female Palestinian rapper.

The next one has nothing to do with the Arab world, but is one of the most famous artists in recent years. Stromae, Flemish mother and Rwandan father, killed during an ethnic cleansing in Rwanda. And this is the song dedicated to him...

and I must say that if there were more "classical" composers with the courage to speak about important topics like the relationship between fathers and sons, then contemporary classical music would also gain more weight... but oh well, we are the society of the idealization of art, we talk about nothing in order to talk about everything, and we continue to talk about nothing.

Now, I say, surely there are dozens of modernist requiems on the victims of terrorism, perhaps written with many dissonances and in Latin. But personally, I am much more moved by a song that speaks of the absence of a father, killed in the Rwandan genocide, and speaks of it with the musical language of its time, speaking to everyone"},

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Reply 7 by rstrauss

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Generally speaking, I agree with the article ... music can certainly influence the masses and culture helps, but the factors at play are a bit more complex ... Rotore gave an example above with Wagner's music, where the problem is not the musician but those who listen.

Perhaps if for every additional musician, in addition to 10 fewer fundamentalists, there were also 100 people approaching this art, I am not saying we would have solved the problem, but we would certainly have provided good help.

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Reply 8 by Frank

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I will be brief, but I am not indifferent to your comments, which I greatly appreciated from various points of view:

Why can't a fundamentalist (and I am referring to any field, I repeat, I am not referring to the specific cause of the article) be a musician and be regularly enrolled in a conservatory?

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Reply 9 by rstrauss

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Frank wrote:

I will be brief, but I am not indifferent to your comments, which I greatly appreciated from various points of view:

Why can't a fundamentalist (and I am referring to any field, I repeat, I am not referring to the specific cause of the article) be a musician and be regularly enrolled in a conservatory?

There will surely be fundamentalist musicians enrolled in a conservatory. Fundamentalism, of any kind, in the 21st century is, in my opinion, a symptom of cultural closure and a lack of intellectual openness, tending to exclude everything that does not belong to a certain world/movement/group, etc. ... I find it difficult to imagine a musician of this type.

Music in itself does not incite violence ... but there are those who use it for this purpose.

I think, perhaps wrongly, that culture = freedom, and I do not mean only music.

Perhaps music succeeds in uniting more than other disciplines, as it is direct and instinctive in the listener and is an active art, in the sense that those who play it do so together with other people and do so, let's say, "online".

Making music together undeniably means being on the same wavelength, and this probably—I say probably—frees the mind.

History has shown us that an ignorant people is more easily suggestible and manipulable ... perhaps that is exactly what the article means, and probably whoever wrote it wanted to convey a message slightly broader than it seems.

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Reply 12 by danielescarpetti

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I would like to clarify one thing with Claudio: I am perfectly fine with music being used in the manner you describe. I don't understand a lick of what they are saying, but I want to think and hope that they are saying good things.

Their music is 1000 light-years away from my musical tastes... but that's perfectly fine. For me, this too is Art and it is not part of the "stupidity of music" that I was talking about above; it has the merit—precisely—of making true what the post proposed by Frank said: music has the power to unite, music breaks down all kinds of barriers.

I gave a like to everyone because in all your interventions there is something shareable for me and, which also says a lot, about how truth possesses many and countless, if not outright contradictory, facets.

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Reply 13 by thallo

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rstrauss wrote:

I find it difficult to think of a musician of this type.

Music in itself does not incite violence... however, there are those who use it for that purpose.

I think, perhaps wrongly, that culture = freedom, and I don't just mean music.

Perhaps music succeeds in uniting more than other disciplines, as it is direct and instinctive in the listener and is an active art, in the sense that those who play it do so together with other people and do it, let's say, "on line".

Making music together undeniably means being on the same wavelength, and this probably, I say probably, frees the mind.

History has shown us that an ignorant people is more easily suggestible and manipulable... perhaps the article means exactly this, and probably whoever wrote it wanted to convey a message slightly broader than it seems.

I mean, guys, most of the wars in human history have been fought by civilizations that believed they were culturally superior to others. In fact, when you think your culture is free, the next step is to offer your freedom to your neighbors, by force. "Ignorance", "culture", "freedom" are all empty words that everyone uses in their own way... post-Weimar Republic Germany, i.e., Nazi Germany, was one of the most culturally advanced countries of its time; Hitler himself and the major political figures of the National Socialist party were passionate about music (not just Wagner...), art, architecture, philosophy, religion. What is inside music that should protect a man from the instinct to kill others?! What is in the ability to play an instrument, or to sit down and enjoy a CD, or to compose a love romance that can concretely prevent what has always existed in human history: war?!

And then, as usual, the speeches in which we defend our passions always smell a bit fishy to me. Coincidentally, it is music that opens the mind, and coincidentally music is our passion. I mean, who's to say it isn't rugby that opens the mind, or quantum physics, or masturbation?! The message of the article, read from this perspective, says "dear musicians, keep being musicians because you have made a wonderful choice! Don't read anything else, don't learn anything else, don't question yourselves about the thousand subjects whose existence you ignore, because music is enough"... am I the only one who read this?? The article doesn't say to do NOTHING, not even the most universally good things, like volunteering. In fact, it actually tells us "continue to be fully Western, because we are the ones who will win our war, with our culture". And this is precisely the step before cultural war. Which already exists—see the thousand useless issues about the burqa (when I was little in Sicily, a tide of women wore veils to cover their hair or dressed in black after becoming widows, but no one ever brought out laws to forbid it).

As a person who does not believe in music but believes in people (as I said to Luca Cavaliere in Milan, if a person is rich, they manage to infuse this richness into whatever they do, be it music, cooking, cycling, plumbing, or serial murder), I think that what needs to be done is precisely "to do something else". To go beyond extremism, one should do things different from those that are normally done.

Like listening to music 1000 light-years away from our musical tastes, for example, forcing ourselves to understand how that too can be art and useful art.

It seems strange to say it, but I believe Pope Francis spoke about it too (...). Welcoming the "other", meaning by "other" a very broad concept, is at the base of the most advanced Catholicism. Extremism is overcome by going to the extremes and discovering that they too are "center".

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Reply 15 by rstrauss

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thallo wrote:

I mean, guys, most of the wars in human history have been fought by civilizations that believed they were culturally superior to others. In fact, when you think your culture is free, the next step is to offer your freedom to your neighbors, by force. "Ignorance", "culture", "freedom" are all empty words that everyone uses in their own way... post-Weimar Republic Germany, i.e., Nazi Germany, was one of the most culturally advanced countries of its time; Hitler himself and the major political figures of the National Socialist Party were passionate about music (not just Wagner...), art, architecture, philosophy, religion.

I never spoke about imposing something, I simply maintained that most of the time music unites and that it does not instigate violence as such. Talking about Nazi Germany here is misleading... there were multiple factors at play and they had nothing to do with culture.

thallo wrote:

What is inside music that should save a man from the instinct to kill others?! What is in the ability to play an instrument, or to sit down and enjoy a CD, or to compose a love romance that can concretely avoid what has always existed in human history, war?!

Perhaps because by making music together, I repeat, perhaps, one can discover that someone who is considered the devil, is not actually a devil... I never said that making music together means suddenly everyone becomes friends, but it can be a means to get to know the diversity you are talking about.

thallo wrote:

And then, as usual, the discussions in which we defend our passions always smell a bit fishy to me. Coincidentally, it is precisely music that opens the mind, and coincidentally music is our passion. I mean, who's to say it isn't rugby that opens the mind, or quantum physics, or masturbation?! The message of the article, read from this perspective, says "dear musicians, keep being musicians because you have made a wonderful choice! Don't read anything else, don't learn anything else, don't question yourselves about the thousand subjects whose existence you ignore, because music is enough"... am I the only one who read this?? The article doesn't say to do NOTHING, not even the most universally good things, like volunteering. In fact, it actually tells us "continue to be fully Western, because we are the ones who will win our war, with our culture". And this is precisely the step before cultural war.

We are musicians and we talk about music, but I could cite various examples: I am passionate about American football and in the videos of the games, they don't fail to show the succulent barbecues that the fans have... fans of both teams, white, black, yellow etc., all together and, furthermore, nothing really happens in the stands (compared to what is seen in Italian stadiums) except for healthy fandom.

So there will be many other things, but the fact that we limit ourselves here to our discipline does not mean that we ignore others.

I don't see it as a cultural war anyway... whoever wrote the article perhaps used a term that was too strong by speaking of war... given the writer's style, they wanted to provoke with a strong expression... right or wrong, the concept is right: don't change your habits... and I add: whoever wants to approach a different culture is free to do so, as long as they let me be free to cultivate mine.

thallo wrote:

Which already exists, see the thousand useless questions about the burqa (when I was little in Sicily, a tide of women wore the veil to cover their hair or dressed in black after becoming widows, but no one ever brought up laws to forbid it).

You are confusing the two things: the burqa covers the face entirely, while the veil called shador (forgive my spelling) leaves the face uncovered and only covers the hair, and the difference between the two is substantial. So what women in Sicily (and not only) did was not prohibited and no one ever dreamed of contesting it.

The Italian law requires all people circulating on the street to carry an identity document with them and to be immediately recognizable. Therefore, you cannot have your face covered and thus the burqa is illegal.

Arab women living in Italy MUST respect Italian law. This is the important thing; all other discussions are nonsense.

thallo wrote:

As a person who does not believe in music but believes in people (as I said to Luca Cavaliere in Milan, if a person is rich they manage to infuse this richness into anything they do, whether it be music, cooking, cycling, plumbing or serial murder) I think that the thing to do is precisely to "do something else". To go beyond extremism, one should do things different from those that are currently being done"}

normally.

Like listening to music 1000 light years away from our musical tastes, for example, by striving to understand how that too can be art and useful art

And that is what I said: music is a succession of sounds... what it becomes, how it reaches the listener, how it is interpreted, we decide that.

When I maintain that culture = freedom, I say it for the simple reason that culture (all of it) allows you to know things you didn't know, and this allows you to have a different vision of what is happening around you and perhaps you might even change your mind about certain things.

To return to our subject... certainly if you study only and exclusively the history of music, perhaps there is something missing... knowing that Rachmaninoff had fled to the USA because he was persecuted and that's it remains a mere notion, but if this is the starting point to go and see what was actually happening in Russia during that period, then even the music will have helped you to expand your horizons and perhaps to understand the reason behind certain things.

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Reply 16 by danielescarpetti

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I continue to send likes to everyone because I continue to find that in all your interventions there is something "true" and "relatable."

I don't think your positions are so irreconcilable, and what you write is yet another demonstration of how reality is much more complex than what one usually tends to do when taking a side.

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Reply 18 by danielescarpetti

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Besides my passion for music, I cultivate another great passion: Mickey Mouse. Yes, exactly him, the mouse who was born in 1928 in Walt Disney's house.

What this has to do with this discussion, you might ask yourselves.

It has everything to do with it, it certainly does!

Drawing comics is also an Art and often, as in the case of Mickey Mouse, from 1930 to today, with its ups and downs, it is a truly noble Art.

I have recently been frequenting a forum dedicated to Disney comics; there my name is Doppio Segreto, in honor of what I consider a masterpiece by Romano Scarpa and Guido Martina: Mickey Mouse and Black Pete's Double Secret.

THESE days, on the occasion of Holocaust Remembrance Day, a topic was created that links the Disney world to this event.

Mario Rende told us the story of the Ferramonti di Tarsia concentration camp and said a phrase that moved and touched me, which I can only share and which also answers the question of this post: ... each of them had immense dramas behind their backs. The choice they made to overcome all this strikes me: culture and sport. In fact, there was an intense activity of concerts, theater, literary competitions. Chess matches, football tournaments. All with very few means. Culture, however, was the glue that allowed everyone to overcome every internal division, to overcome immense sadness and to have hope for the future. I believe this is a great lesson: in culture, there is never fanaticism, racism, or intolerance. In culture, there is always a future.

Thank you Mario!

Mario Rende ci ha raccontato la storia  del campo di concentramento Ferramonti di Tarsia

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Reply 19 by Piccinesco

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For me, it is not music itself that unites, but the personality of those who play it, compose it, listen to it, and promote it that creates a meeting point, an understanding. It is not music that "dictates" our behavior, but rather we are the ones who behave regardless of what we listen to, just as everyone perceives the same "musical motif" differently. What lies behind and within a person matters greatly, perhaps too much; if listening to music with high levels of meaning (see lyrics) and fine construction were enough, we would all be indistinguishably equal in terms of behavior, which is strictly linked to life experience, of which music is "only" one part. It is not so; people cannot and will never be what they think they are, because even the situations they might face would involve changes and resizing of what each of us identifies as values—values that are not always objective but very often subjective, differing from one people to another.

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Reply 20 by Boesendorfer

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Daniele Scarpetti wrote: "In addition to my passion for music, I cultivate another great passion: Mickey Mouse. Yes, exactly him, the mouse who was born in 1928 in Walt Disney's house."

On this note: did you know that Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli was also an avid reader of Mickey Mouse?

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