Fugue Workshop 2014

I know it would be easier for me to stay quiet since I haven't presented this year's one yet, but I would like to ask a question about this subject.

Looking at it, at first glance, it seems that measures 2 and 3 are "progressions", and the temporary alterations start on A and end on C.

On the 2nd beat of measure 2 there is E (which could be the 5th degree of A), and on the 2nd beat of measure 3 there is D (which could, here in the past tense, have been the tonic, so the subject in theory

could have started with the dominant, but I don't think that's the case, despite the G# on the 1st beat of measure 2 and the one placed on the 3rd beat of measure 4, also because there is a sort of figure that repeats at a major third interval between E and G#).

I therefore hypothesize A as the tonic, also due to the duration it takes on the 1st beat of the first measure, and the subject ending on the 3rd degree of A, with the possibility of adding a small coda in measure 4, or leaving the minim as it is and adding a part, but maintaining this profile in both the subject and the answer, because even without playing it, the rhythm suggests that the answer could easily start from the 1st beat of measure 5, since C is also the 6th degree of E minor (if the subject were confirmed in A minor).

I didn't quite understand the doubts; in my opinion, it starts and ends on the I° degree. I would say a descending chromatic scale from T to D in the first part and then a cadence to I° in the last measure.

Clearly, chromaticism lends itself to progressions... in the first workshop on the fugue from 2010, I remember many harmonic solutions in this regard...

Frank wrote:

A new subject that many liked, blooming chromatic ... just to put us in front of another difficulty.

... it seems quite tough to me

You mean from the tonic A to the dominant E, I suppose. I haven't tried it yet, but as a rhythm it doesn't seem bad. Anyway, if you mean being on the I degree (C, third of A) in the 5th measure, okay; harmonically, however, the subject itself ends on the third and I must take this into account. We'll see later if with this idea I'll be able to work it out, I wouldn't bet on it.

Piccinesco wrote:

harmonically however, the subject itself ends on the third

No, melodically it ends on the modal and harmonically on the I° degree

Piccinesco wrote:

so at first glance it seems that measures 2 and 3 are "progressions"

And it is a harmonic progression.

DiesIrae wrote:

It is a harmonic progression.

and I would dare say modulating

antares86 wrote:

i would dare say modulating

If it stays in A minor, however, it shouldn't be modulating... or am I wrong? Where do you think it would go?

fair observation, I missed the G#.... yes, but as a progression it still seems strange to me if it isn't modulating...

antares86 wrote:

correct observation, I missed the G#.... yes, but as a progression it continues to seem strange to me if it is not modulating...

Probably because it is a harmonic progression (and that's it) and not rhythmic/melodic/harmonic (the usual schoolboy one that goes around).

A great Subject, a bit tricky if it were for an exam with an 18-hour lockdown.

Since it descends and the G# is canceled anyway, arriving on E at measure 4, it should still be a progression (yes), in measures 2 and 3, but not modulating, since the G is returned to its natural state; however, in a descending sense, couldn't it be understood as the 7th degree of the natural A minor scale, without this particular detail causing other "interpretation" problems?

After all, the G# returns, even if not on the strong beat, in the 4th measure (though I have a doubt about that).

DiesIrae wrote:

Probably because it is a harmonic progression (and that's it) and not rhythmic/melodic/harmonic (the usual schoolbook one that goes around).

A great Subject, a bit tricky if it were for an exam with an 18-hour lockdown.

the problem for me is that I'm not even close to studying counterpoint yet ahahahah

So, just off the top of my head, couldn't we have in succession: I_V_IV_V_III (III understood as I in first inversion or otherwise simply the III degree of A)?

I mean this without doing a careful analysis, which might make me see things differently and find more "bold" solutions.

Because then, why no rhythmic progression in measures 2 and 3?

The fragment is the same, it is only shifted by a major 2nd; the interval relationships are the same.

Piccinesco wrote:

So, just off the top of my head, couldn't we have in succession: I_V_IV_V_III (III understood as I in first inversion or anyway the actual III degree of A)?

I mean this without doing a careful analysis, which might make me see things differently and find more "bold" solutions.

Because why not a rhythmic progression in measures 2 and 3?

The fragment is the same, it is only shifted by a major 2nd; the intervallic relationships are the same.

Because I wanted to consider it from the last 3 eighth notes of the first measure and I felt the need for a rest of one eighth note on the third quarter (specifically in the first measure)... but moving forward, the idea of progression, even rhythmic, is there... even melodic...

Perhaps it depends on where one wants to start considering it... in my opinion, right from the 3 little notes before the downbeat, so from the last 3 eighth notes of the first measure until the E on the downbeat

antares86 wrote:

the problem doesn't arise for me, I'm not even close to studying counterpoint yet ahahahah

Ok, but if you think it is a melody to be harmonized... the problem doesn't move much....

Anyway, in my opinion, it can be harmonized like

Measure 1: I

measure 2: V+ V-

measure 3: IV+ IV-

Measure 4: I V

Measure 5: I

Alternating plagal and perfect cadence at the end.

DiesIrae wrote:

Ok, but if you think it's a melody to be harmonized... the problem doesn't change much....

I barely even started those ahahaahaah they are still at the beginning.... see, it's measure 2 that leaves me perplexed: G# - D# - I see them as the leading tone and dominant of A minor, but that G natural, the one following and then re-proposed in the next measure as a progression.... I just don't see it in A minor..... unless there are passing notes

However, the fake modulation in measure 2 would intrigue me:

Measure 1: I

measure 2: V(a-)

measure 3: I(re+) IV(a-)

measure 4: I V

Measure 5: I

Rather than seeing measure 2 as V+ and V-, I prefer a descending progression of V in a- and V in d+ and from there going to IV in a-

It seems more plausible to me that the g# goes to gb, which then resolves onto f# as a dominant 7th, as it seems more plausible to me than in a transition modulation like this that D major immediately goes to D minor to return to the home key.

rstrauss wrote:

However, the fake modulation in measure 2 would pique my interest:

...which would be a tonicization of the IV degree.

rstrauss wrote:

Measure 1: I

measure 2: V(a-) V(d+)

measure 3: I(d+) IV(a-)

measure 4: I V

Measure 5: I

In my opinion, a strong tonicization like this would only make sense if the subject started on A+, which would require adjusting a note in the first measure.

rstrauss wrote:

Rather than seeing measure 2 as V+ and V-, I prefer a descending progression of V of A- and V of D+ and from there going to IV of A-

If we really want to talk about "plausible," one only needs to look at the repertoire; V+ V- is the most plausible thing regarding the harmonization of descending chromaticism. It is one of the two solutions that work. Obviously, it also depends on the stylistic context. But if you think of a tonal context, what sense is there in starting on A-; would it be to immediately burn through a 2-measure tonicization of the fourth degree? Not even Scriabin did that... I would play it as a re-harmonization at the recapitulation. You also have to see how you intend the subsequent part.

Besides, if there were a single solution, every subject would correspond to only one fugue...