Importance Of Fingering

If I may, I would like to answer the questions based on my very small experience of 9 months of study, but I am happy to be proven wrong so that I can always learn more! 😕

So ...

In your opinion, is the correct fingering always the most comfortable one?

1) I don't think so; sometimes certain fingerings are truly uncomfortable but mandatory to play certain passages or chords

In your opinion, is the correct fingering the one that "comes naturally to us"?

2) Perhaps I am misinterpreting the question here, but I believe that fingering must always be and only be what has been studied once, never improvised or modified once the correct one has been studied

In your opinion, does the correct fingering take into account the accentuation of the piece?

3) I didn't understand this question

In your opinion, is it appropriate to divide some difficult or uncomfortable passages between the right hand and the left hand?

4) In my small experience, I have come across pieces where the left hand helped the right by invading the field in the right hand's high register, and it solved many of my doubts and problems

In your opinion, is it always right to use the stronger fingers, sparing the weak ones?

5) I believe it depends on the type of sound one wants to achieve and on the difficulty of the passage

In your opinion, is it appropriate—and when—to change the fingering of a piece that has already been assimilated?

6) Sometimes yes, because it might solve execution problems, and sometimes it might facilitate execution; it happened to me with a piece where I didn't know the rule for octave fingering and I was making movements that complicated the execution

Ok, Daniele. Let's wait for more answers. It is obvious that some questions are directed at those who have already been playing for years and have an "advanced" technique. Anyway, you did well to give these sharp answers that show you are very prudent about the path you are taking. See you soon....

Paolo

I will also gladly fill out this "questionnaire" based on my experience...

In your opinion, is the correct fingering always the most comfortable one?

Absolutely not; it is not necessarily true that the fingering printed in the book (if that is what is meant by correct fingering) is the most comfortable, precisely because it does not take into account many other variables that change from person to person. Large or small hands might opt for different fingerings, the pianist's technical preparation can lead them to choose fingerings that are more comfortable for them, execution speed, etc., etc.

In your opinion, is the correct fingering the one that "comes naturally to us"?

Very often, but not always, precisely because during the study phase the recommended fingering is used, but when reaching speed, an alternative fingering might be preferred; or conversely, during the study phase, one might change the recommended fingering for a personal one, only to discover at speed that the passages are actually easier with the recommended one.

In your opinion, does the correct fingering take into account the accentuation of the piece?

Sometimes yes, especially in leaps. For example, landing on the first beat in a part of the piece where we are in a strong dynamic nuance using the 5th finger on a leap is certainly not helpful; it would be easier to opt for a 3rd or a 1st which allows for a more decisive attack, but it always depends on whether the piece allows for these modifications or not.

In your opinion, is it appropriate to divide some difficult or awkward passages between the right hand and the left hand?

Certainly yes! Provided that such divisions, which were meant to be performed with one hand, are executed without the listener noticing the transition from one hand to the other and, above all, without ruining the visual piano effect that the composer intended with that particular passage.

In your opinion, is it always right to use the stronger fingers, sparing the weaker ones?

Absolutely not; a pianist worthy of the name must be able to use even the weakest fingers to resolve a technical passage, although often in particularly difficult situations it is possible to resort to different technical solutions that facilitate this task and do not cause physical discomfort to the muscles of the forearm, wrist, and shoulder. In essence, why complicate life by performing a trill with the 4th and 5th if the piece allows us to use the 2nd and 3rd, or 3rd and 4th, or even Tausig's fingering: 2nd 3rd 1st 3rd 2nd 3rd 1st 3rd?

In your opinion, is it appropriate and when should one change the fingering of a piece that has already been mastered?

Usually, I master a piece by immediately using the fingering that is most comfortable and natural for its execution, but pieces are never fully 'digested,' as my teacher once said; therefore, it is possible that even after years, a pianist may realize that certain technical nuances could be more fluid using a different fingering. In these specific cases, it might be possible to backtrack, provided it is first studied slowly (not for long, but only to allow the mind to memorize it) and only then re-executed at speed with the new fingering.

CONCLUSIONS

In essence, it is difficult to generalize on such a topic. Fingering arises from the piece and, as you say, Paolo—and I completely agree with this—it is the piece itself in union with our ear that suggests the right technical and fingering solutions that allow us to execute various difficult passages fluently. The keyword is therefore fluency; the right technical solutions are those that do not leave us at the end of the piece with forearm tension or stiffness in the shoulder and spine. Everything must follow with naturalness and ease. Ultimately, we are pianists, not blacksmiths.

TheSimon wrote:

I will also gladly fill out this "questionnaire" based on my experience...

In your opinion, is the correct fingering always the most comfortable one?

Absolutely not; it is not said that the fingering printed in the book (if that is what is meant by correct fingering) is necessarily the most comfortable, precisely because it does not take into account many other variables that change from hand to hand. Large or small hands might opt for different fingerings, the pianist's technical preparation can lead them to opt for fingerings that are more comfortable for them, execution speed, etc., etc.

In your opinion, is the correct fingering the one that "comes naturally to us"?

Very often, but not always, precisely because during the study phase the recommended fingering is used, but when reaching speed, an alternative fingering might be preferred; or conversely, during the study phase, one might change the recommended fingering for a personal one, only to discover at speed that the passages work better with the recommended one.

In your opinion, does the correct fingering account for the accentuation of the piece?

Sometimes yes, especially in leaps. For example, entering on the first beat in a part of the piece where we are in a loud dynamic nuance with the 5th on a leap is certainly not helpful; it would be easier to opt for a 3rd or a 1st which allows for a more decisive attack, but it always depends on the possibility offered by the piece to perform these changes or not.

In your opinion, is it appropriate to divide some difficult or awkward passages between the right hand and the left hand?

Certainly yes! Provided that such divisions, which were meant to be performed with one hand, are executed without the listener noticing the transition from one hand to the other and, above all, without ruining the visual piano effect that the composer intended with that particular passage.

In your opinion, is it always right to use the stronger fingers, sparing the weak ones?

Absolutely not; a pianist worthy of the name must be able to use even the weakest fingers to resolve a technical passage, although often in some particularly difficult situations it is possible to resort to different technical solutions that facilitate this task and do not cause physical discomfort to the muscles of the forearm, wrist, and shoulder. In essence, why complicate life by performing a trill with 4th and 5th if the piece allows us to use 2nd and 3rd or 3rd and 4th or even Tausig's fingering: 2nd 3rd 1st 3rd 2nd 3rd 1st 3rd?

In your opinion, is it appropriate and when should one change the fingering of a piece that has already been assimilated?

Usually, I assimilate the piece using from the start the fingering that is most comfortable and natural for its execution, but pieces are never finished being digested, as my teacher once said; therefore, it is possible that, even after years, a pianist may realize that certain technical nuances could be more fluid using a different fingering, and so in these specific cases it might be possible to backtrack, provided it is first studied slowly (not for long, but only to allow the mind to memorize it) and only then re-executed at speed with the new fingering.

CONCLUSIONS

In essence, it is difficult to generalize on such a matter. Fingering arises from the piece and, as you say, Paolo, I find myself perfectly in agreement with this: it is the piece itself in union with our ear that suggests the right technical and fingering solutions that allow us to perform various difficult passages fluently. The keyword is therefore fluency; the right technical solutions are those that do not bring us to the end of the piece with forearm tension or stiffness of the shoulder and spine. Everything must follow with naturalness and ease. In the end, we are pianists, not blacksmiths.

As was to be demonstrated 😕

Happy to have been corrected in my insignificant inexperience

I just read some things in these few lines above

that answered some doubts I have had for a long time.

Thank you

Davide

PianoScholar wrote:

As could be demonstrated 😕

Glad to have been corrected in my insignificant inexperience

I just read some things in these few lines above

that answered some doubts I've had for a long time.

Thank you

Davide

Don't belittle yourself Davide, we all started from zero, and the fact that you show this desire to learn only does you honor! Thank you!

Dear Paolo, damn it, today!

It's the third time this editor has messed up and I have to start my reply all over again!

Before answering you, a clarification: let's keep in mind that the piano can also be played with the toes, as my granddaughtertries to teach me.

Furthermore, let's remember that man is a subject with a strong propensity for economy. Therefore, he often uses these two little rules:

A. The new should ideally be based on the old, to avoid always having to start from scratch

B. If the old cannot support the new, please throw it away without regrets.

On this basis also rests the mental and physical activity tending to make an instrument sound, piano included.

It is only from such principles that the concept of fingering arises, understood as the repetition of certain finger sequences to reproduce music.

Keep in mind that, if we were not interested in obtaining reproducible results, the concept of fingering would not exist.

So here are my answers based on the stated little rules.

1. In your opinion, is the correct fingering always the most comfortable one? If 'correct' means that which allows me to achieve what I hear and 'comfortable' means that which best guarantees the consistency of the result, yes. So there are fingerings that are musically comfortable but not practically so, and vice versa (remember that in other activities, if a man does not use the thumb in opposition to the other fingers, he is almost an invalid). If 'correct' means what is written on the score, let's keep in mind that it represents a suggestion derived from the experience or the objective of the person who wrote it; it is by no means an order. In any case, I have thrown away without regrets several disinterested suggestions (to tell the truth, it seems those trying to give me orders had problems too!).

2. In your opinion, is the correct fingering the one that "comes naturally to us"? I don't understand: 11111111 and 123454321 come naturally to me, but it seems many of the authors I love don't know what to do with them, except in entirely exceptional cases. They had other ideas about "natural," God rest their souls! Anyway, let's remember that there have been greats with even fewer than 10 fingers!

3. In your opinion, does the correct fingering take into account the accentuation of the piece? I would say yes, at least as far as I am concerned, because some of my fingerings are either too hesitant or too weak. In any case, every now and then I try again to see if something interesting comes out.

4. In your opinion, is it appropriate to divide some difficult or awkward passages between the right hand and the left hand? Well, I would say it isn't, if a feasible and serene solution exists. But nothing should force us to whip our own backs while holding the whip with our toes! There are cases, however, where it is almost necessary. Soon I will publish among the scores another gem by Gottschalk: Bamboula. Well, I seem to remember that in the central part in F# Major there are some short passages that, if you don't do them with a change of register between the hands, you might die.

5. In your opinion, is it always right to use the stronger fingers, sparing the weak ones? Let's not exaggerate, otherwise from being weak they will become dying! Let's find something for them to do as well.

6. In your opinion, is it appropriate and when should one change the fingering of a piece that has already been assimilated? Everyone progresses over time and, therefore, the fingering that allowed me to achieve a certain result some time ago may be the one that prevents me from progressing today. Cf. rule B!

Here I am too... answering in order.

In your opinion, is the correct fingering always the most comfortable one? - No, in fact, precisely because it is sometimes natural to choose the most comfortable one, we do not follow the original one anyway.

In your opinion, is the correct fingering the one that "comes naturally to us"? - Sometimes yes, other times no. Let me give an example: studying the "Moonlight Sonata" (I imagine you are tired of this story 🙂), in the original score Beethoven wrote in some places that two fingers must stay on the same key, because there is a fast repetition of the same note. The first time it is played, for example, with the 4, immediately after with the 5, which must already be on the key from before.

In your opinion, does the correct fingering take into account the accentuation of the piece? I believe so, but not being an expert, I would like to hear other opinions.

In your opinion, is it appropriate to divide some difficult or awkward passages between the right hand and the left hand? - If it is written in the score, yes. A friend of mine comes to mind, who studied piano for a few years, who always split the melody between the two hands, even though in reality everything had to be performed by the right hand. Let me explain: if the left hand had to play two notes (eighth notes) and the right hand a group of four (also eighth notes), he "made the parts equal 😆: three eighth notes to the left and three to the right, and since they were in succession, it couldn't be heard, but looking at him, you could clearly see that the left hand was "traveling a bit too much" along the keyboard...

In your opinion, is it always right to use the stronger fingers, sparing the weak ones? - No, I don't think so. I think it is necessary to know how to perform dynamics always, with any finger. Playing often on a digital keyboard with NON-weighted keys, I notice that it is difficult... on the piano sometimes it is a bit easier...

In your opinion, is it appropriate and when should one change the fingering of a piece that has already been mastered? - I wouldn't know... if one realizes that the original fingering can be followed, why not try it? However, I would like to know why those who write music decide to make us use THAT fingering and not another... in short, isn't the important thing knowing how to play the piece? Of course, sometimes using the correct fingering makes the piece sound better, but...

I anxiously await clarifications...

PS Paolo... hey, very interesting topic... yes, we will have much to discuss for a while... Bye!

pianoexpert wrote:

It is useless and trivial to reiterate that good fingering is important for the result of the performance. We will discuss this in depth in the Tutorials dedicated to piano technique.

In your opinion, is the correct fingering always the most comfortable one?

In your opinion, is the correct fingering the one that "comes naturally to us"?

In your opinion, does the correct fingering take into account the accentuation of the piece?

In your opinion, is it appropriate to divide some difficult or awkward passages between the right hand and the left hand?

In your opinion, is it always right to use the stronger fingers, saving the weak ones?

In your opinion, is it appropriate and when should one change the fingering of a piece that has already been mastered?

Anyway.... we have quite a lot to discuss, for now... don't you think?

Greetings to all

Paolo

Hi everyone, I will also try to give an answer!

1) in my opinion not always! In my small and distant experience as a student, I have happened to use a fingering that was apparently uncomfortable but allowed me to respect the expressiveness of the piece. Furthermore, some fingerings may seem difficult for a student, but once studied you realize that otherwise it would be an impossible feat (for example, the fingering for the trill -Tausig- ).

2) I think so within certain limits and not during the study phase

3) I think I already answered in 1

4) Maybe yes ... I don't know!! 😆

5) No absolutely, we will become pianists with six fingers!!

6) perhaps it would help to make the mind a bit more flexible but regardless I believe the new fingering should be studied and mastered

Greetings to all with great esteem!

Lorenzo

I follow up with a question to the first question: when can a fingering be defined as uncomfortable?

Given that musical sense takes priority over technical difficulty, either the fingering is possible or impossible... the middle ground might only mean that I still have a way to go as a pianist.

I know you hoped I would die here, but instead I want to ask you (regarding (un)comfort) to simultaneously reflect on the differences between playing pieces by Chopin and by Schumann

By uncomfortable, I mean that unorthodox fingering which can, however, be musically and accentually effective. Sometimes it may seem impossible, but perhaps it is the right one. I remember trying to find an effective fingering in the third movement of Beethoven's Appassionata, in vain. One day I was on a bus near Piazza Venezia in Rome: it came to mind. It was that passage where the two hands chase each other in imitation. I thought that if I placed the accents always with the thumb (both of the right and the left), perhaps I would solve it. Arriving home, I tried it with both hands together and it seemed very strange to me. Now I only use that one and I find it correct, even if it is not the only one.

The difference between Chopin and Schumann is great. Chopin is a "developer" of ideas... Schumann is an infinite producer of "undeveloped" ideas (this aspect of the two Greats comes to mind... but one could talk for hours....Immense!!!!)

pianoexpert wrote:

Sometimes it can seem impossible

Well, it CAN seem. It is the composer's task on one hand to write playable (possible) things but on the other hand to try to make the most of technique (sometimes even pushing it beyond its limits)

pianoexpert wrote:

The difference between Chopin and Schumann is great. Chopin is a "developer" of ideas... Schumann is an infinite producer of "undeveloped" ideas (this aspect of the two Greats comes to mind... but one could talk for hours.... Immense!!!!)

Referring strictly to the scope of discomfort, don't you find that Schumann is significantly more uncomfortable than Chopin? And that, given the same amount of effort, Chopin has a better result?

They are two completely different ways of conceiving "composition". I like both and I do not consider Schumann "ungrateful"

pianoexpert wrote:

They are two completely different ways of conceiving "composition". I like both and I do not consider Schumann "ungrateful"

Of course I like both too! Of course ... but we were talking about (dis)comfort 😉

Look at Bach's violin partitas... they are not exactly comfortable, but they are gems of literature.

I understand what you mean. Yes, in effect Chopin is more "pianistic"... and yields more. A composition is also classified by its "comfort". Chopin composed solely for the piano and every one of his ideas is born on the keyboard. The same goes for Liszt. Other great Romantics can also be somewhat unpianistic. This does not affect the difficulty. Let us remember that Chopin took hand position very much into consideration. He had begun writing "the method of methods" where, as everyone knows, he favored the B major position, specifically made for the conformation of our fingers. He did not have time to become a great pedagogue. His short life forced him to earn a living by giving lessons to young ladies of Good Family. The Bon Ton of Paris forced him into this. He therefore had no great pupils, except Matthias, who was later Cortot's teacher. Only through this subtle thread do the words of the great Romantic reach us.

Schumann was much more: Composer, Symphonist, Journalist, Pedagogue, etc... Innovator. He signed with pseudonyms... Florestan, for example, and had founded the League of David... against the Philistines, that is, against those who rejected innovation. His music is a continuous "creation of ideas"... even if not very developed. The famous phrase he wrote on the occasion of Chopin's death makes us understand how much esteem he had for Him... "The soul of Music has passed from the World".

pianoexpert wrote:

Chopin, let us remember, took hand position very much into consideration.

Regarding this, Chopin essentially considered himself "only" a piano teacher (and therefore not a composer) and in fact he never taught composition; there is no school of his, schools have never founded anything on Chopin's movements... except for individual great artists (like Scriabin) who did exactly this great artistry (and as it happens, Scriabin was even a self-taught musician).

Many of his works (C.'s) are due to his piano students, who would say... Maestro, these are masterpieces, put them on paper (or they even did it themselves personally)... Chopin improvised a lot during lessons.

To me, he remains a great artist for nothing to be downgraded; rather, so great that he makes one forgive his desire for intimacy.

Chopin wrote for his students but also for himself; many studies are aimed at his own personal improvement of piano technique... to tackle the subsequent repertoire piece (as if the studies themselves were not) of greater difficulty.

pianoexpert wrote:

Chopin composed solely for the piano and every one of his ideas is born on the keyboard.

pianoexpert wrote:

Schumann was much more: Composer, Symphonist, Journalist, Educator, etc... Innovator.

I'll only grant you Symphonist and Journalist, but I think the concept of an eclectic composer is being missed 😉

What can you tell me about Etude No. 5 Op. 10?

But.. it is one of the most famous. Everything on the black keys. Here, the tradition of playing with the tips of the fingers, which should form an arch, is debunked. Instead, try playing, especially on the blacks, with a large part of the fingertip of the distal phalanx. You will have more grip and more tranquility... more contact with the keys. The gesture of "Rotation" lives here a lot, which we haven't talked about yet in the Tutorials. Rotation allows one to obtain strength without articulating. The fingers are more in contact with the keys, offering more control to the pianist. Happy studying ( It is difficult... but not one of the most difficult of the 24!!!!!)

Don't you consider it innovation?

And what if I told you that this study, played entirely on the black keys, concludes with a beautiful descending octave scale built precisely on the notes of a pentatonic scale (specifically one formed using all the black keys).

The 5 degrees of the pentatonic are I (Gb), II M (Ab), III M (Bb), V G (Db), VI M (Eb)

In a jazz context, many Erroll Garner stride piano pieces are in Gb M

What does this chord suggest to you in the key of E minor: "A G C# F"?