Studio Recording

info on sound card

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ScalaQuaranta

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Opening post by ScalaQuaranta

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I am asking for advice from Simone and generally from anyone who understands more than I do:

I own a MacBook Pro; recently I updated the operating system and consequently this has made it incompatible with my old audio interface (Hercules 10/12 - which I connected via FireWire to the Mac).

I managed to resell it and now I would like to purchase another one, naturally compatible with my currently configured Mac:

processor: 2.53 Ghz Intel Core i5

memory: 8gb 1067 Mhz DDR3

graphics: NVIDIA GeForce GT 330M 256MB

software: OS X 10.8.3 (12D78)

music software used: Logic Pro 9, Finale 2012

a friend of mine spoke very highly of this interface (which connects via USB):

http://www.midimusic.it/modules/catalogo/product.php?pid=682

what do you think?

http://www.midimusic.it/modules/catalogo/product.php?pid=682

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Reply 3 by Thesimon

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You have to tell me how many inputs you need; there are also better cards than that one with a little extra effort.

If you don't need 8 XLR inputs, you can go for RME or Saffire, or even Apogee, which are among the top-of-the-line models.

Let me know how many XLR inputs you need, what you need to do with them, and how much you want to spend.

Nowadays, the best solution is modularization. They are disassembling consoles now. There are many positive aspects to this. If you want, we can talk about it... It could be interesting.

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Reply 4 by Bit

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TheSimon wrote:

they are disassembling the consoles.

Excuse my ignorance, what is meant by disassembling?

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Reply 5 by ScalaQuaranta

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thanks to everyone for your input.

@simone:

8 inputs would be useful for me, but I would like to understand if the characteristics of this interface are sufficient for what I intend to do.

firstly, simple home recordings, such as audio (voice and digital piano, digital piano only, guitar, etc.) and midi.

the more complex work, on the other hand, that I intend to do, is at school (I teach music education in middle schools): when possible, I teach how to build musical instruments using recycled materials, functional and perfectly tuned/tunable, such as: pseudo-bass (like the capoeira berimbau), harps (with rubber bands), marimbules (like the African nzanza, plucked metal tine instruments), friction drums, etc.

my goal is to create small ensembles, of which I would like to correctly amplify every instrument (with piezo?!....I don't know?!) and record every performance. what do you say? could the presonus 1818 be suitable for my needs?

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Reply 6 by Thesimon

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@Bit

The most highly rated consoles worldwide are SSL (Solid State Logic) and NEVE.

I have a photo with the SSL; I apologize if I look like a mess, but I didn't have one with just the console. I promise to take some if you're interested when I return to the studio to show you the channel strip sections, the patch bay, the Vmeters, etc... This is an SSL 4000 G; only half is visible, on the right there is the other half exactly like the visible one, except for the center where the VCAs, the quadcompressor, and the T.C. Electronic that drives the reverb machines located in the racks are...

All high-level studios have used and continue to use these consoles. They consist of 8-channel strip modules; typically, in an equipped studio, the desk is composed of 6 sections of 8 channel strips for a total of 48 channels that suck up 4 Kw, so this stuff cannot be run on a normal 3Kw home setup.

On every channel strip, the signal passes through several circuits. In fact, a channel strip includes microphone preamps, equalizers, compressors, gates, send & return, cues, and more. They are consoles of great substance, but they are limiting regarding the individual choice for each group. Today, thinking is migrating towards modularization. That is, one buys rack-mounted preamps, rack-mounted equalizers, rack-mounted compressors, etc. Why is this happening? Because I can choose every element of my chain according to my personal taste. For example, if I don't like the EQs of the 4000 G channel strip, to stay on theme, I can use an EQ of my liking if I modularize. Furthermore, there is another great advantage. Any additional component through which you pass the input signal from mics if we are in Record or from DACs if we are in a "dirty" MIX will dirty the signal itself; therefore, being able to use modules ensures that the signal passes where it needs to pass without adding anything unnecessary. Obviously, we are talking about professional audio, so there are two schools of thought here as well. The sound purists are for modularization for the reasons we mentioned; for others, this signal coloring is not unpleasant at all, and thus these two factions are created. Obviously, we are always talking about professional audio, therefore both solutions sound truly very good. However, if today many recording studios are migrating towards this new trend, there must be a reason... This is why I felt like recommending API Preamps and a good Apogee ADC to ScalaQuaranta. But here the price rises significantly. If he wants to keep it low but obtain good results, I would backtrack and recommend this MOTU product which is truly excellent...

@ScalaQuaranta

I would take a look at this one, even used, but in good condition. With this, you will get great satisfaction:

http://www.mercatino..._id3013154.html

ssl.jpghttp://www.mercatino..._id3013154.html

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Reply 7 by Thesimon

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The studio isn't mine, maybe !! It belongs to a dear friend of mine. If you feel better speaking in English, go ahead and speak in English, at least the forum will breathe a bit of international air ;-) If you are interested, I also have some photos with the orchestra recording where the microphones used for each group can be seen very clearly, as well as the two tube preamps for the DECCA.

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Reply 9 by Thesimon

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Initially, in the history of recordings, orchestras were recorded using only two microphones: one positioned to the right of the stage suspended in the air with a right pan and the other to the left with a left pan, equidistant from the center represented by the conductor. In terms of STEREO listening, there are no phase problems and, in fact, the spatiality of the sound was very immersive; problems arise when listening is done in mono (all televisions and players of the era were MONO, so this represented a real problem), because phase cancellation phenomena occurred very often. Indeed, if one were to analyze only stereophonic orchestra recordings with a phase correlator, the needle would very often drop towards -1, so listening on a MONO system we would notice that in some points the sound would fade significantly. "DECCA", which is a British record label that has always been interested in classical repertoire recordings, invented a new way of recording the orchestra in the '30s by placing two other microphones above the conductor's head. The arrangement of these two microphones takes the name DECCA, from the record label that invented the system, which is also used today (even if things have changed further).

During the mixing phase, the phase correlator was checked; if the phase shift caused the indicator to tend towards -1, the volumes of the DECCAs were raised to bring most of the signal back into phase, as it was a signal in a central spatial position. Thus, the two microphones to the right and left of the stage ensured spatiality, but the two central microphones safeguarded the recording for MONO-type playback.

Now, recording depends on the type of orchestra, which is also due to acoustic knowledge from which modern microphone positioning derives, as well as the quality of today's microphones. The DECCA system is still used for the center above the conductor's head, but microphones are also inserted for each section of the orchestra with appropriate positioning, e.g.: For violins, microphones high up pointing in the immediate vicinity of the 'f' holes; for double basses, horizontal microphones slightly tilted downwards at 2/3 of the fingerboard near the soundboard; horns require a reflecting panel behind the bell and the microphone pointed towards the reflecting panel... etc. etc.

If we speak instead of a "Large Orchestra," using only one microphone per section might be insufficient; therefore, other microphones are placed in addition to the standard configuration called accent microphones. Normally, one is inserted every two rows of the section. Usually, a large orchestra may need as many as 48 microphones for recording, and everything is mixed so that the pans on the mixer for that particular instrument refer to its position in the orchestra, and that the volumes are comparable to those perceived by a listener who is aligned with and at the same height as the orchestra (optimal position). There are also other mixing techniques that perform the mix during capture. Such is the case with recordings using the Blumlein technique (two figure-8 microphones with capsules overlapping at 90 degrees of phase shift). The mix is done before recording by deciding the distances of the instruments (for volume) and raising each instrument on more or less high platforms (to regulate its phase).

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Reply 12 by ScalaQuaranta

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I would like to branch the discussion slightly to satisfy a curiosity of mine, but which is still related to the topic of 'audio interface'. The question is: phantom microphones (and the resulting phantom power)... how do they differ qualitatively compared to normal "standard" microphones?

And to get back ON topic... regarding the PreSonus interface I was asking you for advice on, could you tell me if it is equipped with it?

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Reply 13 by Thesimon

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Hi Marco,

It's not a question of quality, they are two separate things. There are different types of microphones that have very different technologies from each other; they are mainly divided into 4 categories: dynamic, condenser, piezoelectric, and ribbon. I want to explain how each of these works because activating Phantom on some of them can irreparably damage the microphones.

Dynamic microphones

They are the most used microphones in live settings (for example, concerts). The capsule (the part responsible for the physical transduction of a pressure wave into an electrical signal) of dynamics works in reverse compared to loudspeakers. In loudspeakers, we have an external magnetic core and a winding at the base of the speaker cone. When an electrical signal passes through, the coil moves within the magnetic field exerted by the core and the electrical signal is converted into a pressure wave. In dynamics, the opposite happens: the movement of a magnetic core inside a winding determines the generation of an electrical signal. Dynamics are the most used in live settings because they are very resistant. If a dynamic microphone falls, in most cases (unless it falls from 3 meters), you can pick it up and continue singing; if a condenser microphone falls, it will become unusable. The magnetic core of the capsule has a certain weight and therefore will have a non-negligible moment of inertia when a sound wave passes through. This proves to be very limiting for high frequencies; in fact, the frequency range of dynamic microphones is not very large. They fall short significantly, especially at high frequencies.

Condenser microphones

They are the most used in recording studio settings because they are very sensitive. In live settings, they can be used with proper precautions (often used as cardioid overheads for drums, or sometimes at the output of a cone in a guitar amp).

Their operation is represented by a capsule that acts as a capacitor. The capsule is normally made of a diaphragm coated with gold dust. This represents one plate of the capacitor. The other plate is typically fixed. As a pressure wave passes, the diaphragm moves away from and toward the fixed plate of the capacitor. In this way, by changing the distance between the plates, the capacitance of the capacitor changes according to the following law: C = e*(A/d), which reads "capacitance is directly proportional to the area of the plates and inversely proportional to their distance for a dielectric constant". This constant is obtained through the product of the dielectric constant in a vacuum multiplied by the dielectric constant of the dielectric material separating the two plates; if it were air, the dielectric constant of air. A change in the capacitance of the capacitor corresponds to a change in voltage. Since a condenser microphone needs to be powered to allow the internal capacitor to charge, it receives a 48v supply called Phantom Power. The capsule is infinitely thin, which means that the transducible frequency range of a condenser microphone is very high. Acoustically, this means we will have more detail in capturing the voice because we will be able to capture upper harmonics that we wouldn't be able to capture with a dynamic microphone, which has a poorer frequency range. Furthermore, it is not used live, not only because of sensitivity (it suffers greatly from vibrations, hits, and humidity) but also due to excessive detail. For this reason, if we were to use a condenser microphone to sing at a concert, it would be a feast of feedback (Larsen effect) with resulting squeals.

Piezoelectric microphones

They are often used in contact microphones for functional reasons, meaning they only work well if they are in contact with the vibrating surface. The piezoelectric crystal is a material that, if deformed (we are talking about nanometers), produces a potential difference and thus an amplifiable audio signal. It is often used in bowed instruments and guitars; it produces a very sharp sound, so much so that it is often used in guitar recording as a second accent microphone.

Ribbon microphones

They are based on the same concept as dynamic microphones but, unlike them, they are very delicate. A very thin strip of gold or aluminum is immersed in a magnetic field; when the wave passes, the movement of the membrane produces a potential difference and thus an amplifiable signal. It is categorically forbidden to use them for capturing instruments with large dynamic range. Positioning it, for example, in front of a drum kick, the pressure wave from the hit could break the strip inside.

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I understand that Phantom power is only used with condenser microphones, but what happens if we supply Phantom power to other types of microphones? In the case of dynamic microphones, the windings are designed to withstand Phantom power, also because sometimes, especially in live settings, it might not be possible to disable Phantom for just a single channel; therefore, for dynamics, no problem. There are no problems even for piezo microphones. If we supply Phantom power to a ribbon microphone, we should take it and throw it away immediately. The ribbon actually represents a short circuit. In the case of a short circuit, there is maximum current demand, so the ribbon heats up and breaks (all in a tenth of a second given its tiny thickness). So WATCH OUT NOT TO USE PHANTOM WITH RIBBON MICROPHONES, also because a ribbon microphone that doesn't cost much is around 750 euros.

Coming to your sound card, it has Phantom power, although there are also separate phantom power supplies for those who do not have a mixer / sound card or whatever, without Phantom power.

If you have questions, I am here...

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Reply 14 by ScalaQuaranta

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what can I say, simone….infinite thanks for your expertise and speed!

i must say that the more I read your posts, the more my interest in this boundless world of musical hi-tech increases!

which always ends up triggering a chain reaction of doubt upon doubt!

i ask you one more thing, since you are here:

currently I am working on a little project for voice and piano, self-produced (soon, I would like to let the forum friends listen to one of my tracks). To tinker at home with my voice, what kind of microphone would be suitable for me? could you indicate some models at reasonable prices to purchase? however, consider that once the voice and piano parts are defined and refined, I would like to record everything in an adequate recording studio.

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Reply 15 by Thesimon

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So look, regarding this, it's a separate discussion... Namely...

It depends on which recording studio records you, in the sense that if you want to record yourself, even by getting a condenser microphone and knowing how to tinker well with the mix, if the studio in question is not well-equipped, the difference is barely perceptible. Inform yourself well about the console the studio has available or the modules the studio possesses. Professional things follow a costly process and I would like to understand the final level of what you need to achieve... Without knowing this thing, I cannot help you... Do you want to produce a self-produced CD to let your friends listen to with all the usual limitations, or do you want to do something truly professional at a commercial CD level?

Anyway, don't worry about having doubts, I am here specifically for that, I sought this out myself... I am talking about things I like and that I study at university; it is not a burden for me, on the contrary, I like to share the things I know.

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Reply 16 by ScalaQuaranta

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My goal consists simply of writing about twenty pieces (voice and piano, voice and other), organizing a series of concerts here and there and, on the occasion, selling the CD of the performed pieces (so I am talking about a product to be released on the market, small, niche... but still a market). Just to clarify: I don't have particular ambitions regarding this, especially concerning financial return; certainly, if I could recover some of the expenses, I wouldn't mind! In reality, my only true ambition is to get moving and put myself out there as a composer. And just the mere fact of putting together the repertoire, producing the CD, organizing concerts here and there and, if possible, selling the CD, would be enough for me. Without pretensions regarding returns, in short. But solely for my personal satisfaction, I would like to produce and organize something badass, if you know what I mean. I'll have to ask for a mortgage, right?!

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Reply 17 by Thesimon

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You don't have to take out a mortgage, but if you want to do things professionally as I seem to understand, you must go to seriously equipped studios that use NEVE or SSL consoles; there is no way around that.

To achieve a professional product, the chain to follow is as follows:

- Recording real instruments, in the case of music involving an orchestra. You cannot produce a CD with samples; at most, you can use one sample track for moments when it isn't playing alone. It needs to blend in. If we are talking about electronic music or tracks based on synthesizers, then there is no problem and you only use the studio to record the vocals.

- I was telling you to be careful with the machinery. If you want to record a CD seriously, only SSL and NEVE consoles count, as they are the standards used by all recording studios that produce products for the market.

- Microphone quality -> Normally, vocals are recorded with certain high-end microphones... Neumann, Brauner, Peluso, Panasonic Vintage, AKG (the 414), Blue. In short, gear that costs from 2500 euros up.

- Once everything is recorded, it must be mixed, so you need to inform yourself about the types of monitoring they use.

Once you have obtained the mixed product—meaning all the CD tracks recorded and mixed—all of this must be sent to a mastering studio.

- Last point: the mastering of the tracks.

Now, I know several studios here in Rome that operate with serious equipment and have excellent production resumes: commercials, fiction, orchestra recordings, famous groups, etc., etc., but in Turin, I really wouldn't know what advice to give you. The only advice I could give is regarding mastering. There is a mastering studio near my house that has carried out many restorations for cinema and for commercially released CDs. The prices are not high, and you could even send the material via the internet to receive it back ready to be pressed onto CDs.

If in the meantime you want to start recording something, you need a good audio interface (the converters and preamps are extremely important and must be of high quality) and a good microphone. I find the CAD Trion 8000 very nice; it's a tube mic that doesn't cost too much and has a truly beautiful sound, it should be around 500/550 euros. I have one myself, and I've found it to be really good. However, I would like to understand your budget to be more precise regarding this request. Otherwise, you are too far away, or else I could have lent you something...

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Reply 18 by ScalaQuaranta

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Ok, simone. Thanks for everything! The budget will surely be out of reach compared to what I would like to produce. I would still like to not go beyond 3000-4000 euros

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Reply 20 by ScalaQuaranta

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I imagined so. In fact, I was sure of it. Whatever... it's still too early to wrap my head around it. For now, thanks a lot, simone. Have a good evening

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