Pianoteq Connection to Silent Master Midi System

I am not an expert, but the setup should be correct.

I usually play on an acoustic, but at certain times I play on a Kawai digital connected via MIDI cable to the PC on which I have installed Pianoteq Pro.

The audio, in my case, comes out of the headphones connected to the PC.

The sound of Pianoteq seems quite realistic to me and definitely better than the sampled Kawai sound.

Right, Pianoteq is still a VST; it receives MIDI data, assigns the corresponding sound to the MIDI information, and sends it to the sound card for output.

So Keyboard -> MIDI Cable -> PC input (if it's a MIDI-to-USB interface) or external sound card input (if it's a simple MIDI-to-MIDI cable) -> Signal processing by the PC -> Output of the corresponding sound from the speakers via the sound card out.

ok, thanks for the answers....

You're welcome ! 😉

The keyboard connection to the PC is the standard one, as TheSimon also confirmed to you TheSimon; from this point of view, Pianoteq does not involve anything new.

From the processing standpoint and, therefore, the resulting effect, one must pay attention to the characteristics of the PC you use, as the sound produced by Pianoteq is the result of a series of algorithms that make intensive use of the CPU (the sound is indeed produced in real time, as MIDI signals arrive from the keyboard). If you do not have enough power, it ends up that, as polyphony increases, the sound degrades.

Anyway, I had the chance to play and try Pianoteq when (a week ago) I was still submerged in snow in Romania and it is truly impressive, considering that it is a fairly recent approach to digital sound generation.

Ciao

Yes ! But technology is always moving forward, who knows where we will arrive !!

To the portable piano!

Gennarino wrote:

On the portable piano!

Gentlemen, I tried Pianoteq, the Demo version; I don't know if they perhaps reduced performance in the demo, but it disappointed me greatly. In my opinion, sampled sound in digital remains the best, at least until now. I also feel a bit of lag despite running it on a system with an Intel I7 2.8Ghz, 8 Gb of DDR3 RAM and a Hybrid Hard Disk. Samples use much less CPU and much more RAM, as they should: little processing which allows for very low latency times and fast data exchange thanks to the RAM memory. I don't know what kind of machine it needs to be run on to avoid encountering latency, perhaps on a Dual Processor in multithread... Even the sound did not particularly fascinate me. The attack is good but the sustain is terrible. The sound lingers in a truly unnatural way. I had thought about buying this software, but in my opinion, it still has a long way to go. I think I will opt for the purchase of EastWest Quantum Leap Pianos Gold with iLok key. I believe that as of today it is the most beautiful sample library. The sounds seem like those of a real piano; I listened to it a few days ago on some demos, and I was enthusiastic about it—in fact, I am posting a demo that you should listen to. I challenge you to recognize that it is not an acoustic piano.

Pianoteq --> http://www.pianoconcerto.it/condivisione/pianoteq.mp3

Eastwest Quantum Leap Pianos Gold (Steinway D) --> http://www.pianoconcerto.it/condivisione/eastweststeinway.mp3

The latency problem must be resolved in Pianoteq using ASIO4ALL, which is recommended by the manufacturer itself and can be downloaded for free http://www.asio4all.com/

I am re-listening to the demo proposed by TheSimon and I must admit that the Pianoteq version is undoubtedly inferior to that of

Eastwest Quantum Leap Pianos Gold (Steinway D).

I have never heard Pianoteq sound so bad, could it be a fluke? I have heard better, for example: http://www.pianoteq.com/listen_ecompetition

As for the "challenge to recognize that it is not an acoustic piano"... I will be biased, but it doesn't excite me all that much.

De gustibus....

Bösendorfer

I confirm the technical aspects mentioned by Boesendorfer

The ASIO driver allows one to avoid passing through a considerable number of software virtualization layers (many more on Windows than on Linux, I don't know if it exists on Apple) and to access audio playback peripherals more efficiently.

This allows for the reduction of what Simone calls "Lag", i.e., the time elapsed between the moment the key is touched and the moment the generated sound effect is heard.

If this time exceeds very tight thresholds (milliseconds!), the performer perceives the phenomenon and can no longer play well (assuming they normally do!).

Furthermore, since the performer can press many keys in a short amount of time (this is called an increase in polyphony), it is necessary that the computer (which today processes each key consecutively) processes the effect of all pressed keys without falling behind the performer; otherwise, the playback breaks down (keys are pressed that are not played, which is even worse than Lag!).

To this end, the ASIO driver has a buffer (a customizable memory of finite size) in which one part of the driver accumulates the playback information (which we will hereafter call events) and from which another part of the driver retrieves the events to perform the playback. The larger the buffer, the less risk there is of losing events, but the larger it is, the more the Lag can increase, with the risk of what I explained before.

To what has been said now, we add what was said in previous posts, regarding the fact that the sound is "synthesized" on the spot, without resorting to any "sample"; therefore, available power must be ample and/or one must have a minimum of technical knowledge to "adjust" the computer parameters so as not to have negative effects.

It is clear that sample libraries today have advantages over programs that, like PianoTeq, work with physical models, but it is true that - with time and the increasing performance of computers (there are empirical laws that have proven true so far, supporting this statement) - the trend will be in favor of the latter, for a very simple reason: sample libraries can only play sampled sounds and/or modify them slightly.

I will give an example of something that sample libraries cannot do:

We all know how different the sound sensation is if we play two notes - one after another - or play them together, for example, from a timbral point of view: it is observed that the timbre changes as a result of the non-linear interaction of the timbres of the two component notes.

If a model is sophisticated enough to be non-linear, then it succeeds in reproducing such behavior. A technical reason is that the model reasons on frequencies, i.e., on the elements that compose the single emission of a note with a timbre.

A sample library, instead, is based on the recording of the sound (including the timbre) corresponding to the touch of each key at a certain velocity. At this point, being unable to sample all combinations of simultaneous note associations, it would have enormous difficulties (in practice it would be impossible) to reproduce the effect.

The other aspect of PianoTeq that attracts me is that, when appropriately customized, it manages to reproduce an enormous number of instruments, with different timbres and tunings (just the other day I was about to post some examples, from Rag Honky-tonk to Baroque on spinet played with PianoTeq, then I got bored - it was late at night - and I gave up for a well-deserved nap!).

I believe that, if one also wants to have fun, this is an advantage; I consider it not only musical but also and especially economic.

It is therefore obvious that one must have a moderate and gradual approach, experimenting and evaluating products also based on one's own needs and possibilities (musical and economic).

Perhaps that is why, when I was young, I never bought a Ramirez Concerto guitar (> 9000 Euro today!), but I settled for a Takamine (its sound is beautiful!) and a Cuenca flamenco (wonderful). Today I would have the money, but a Ramirez would still be wasted (but is it, Segovia ?!).

But that is just my opinion, everyone can do what they want.

P.S. @ Boesendorfer

The lady we spoke about some time ago was seen, in an evident state of advanced intoxication, around those parts. Was it Teroldego from your cellar or one of your performances with PianoTeq?

On Mac, almost all primary peripherals run directly on the hardware without the API making too many system calls. This is why on PC you have to install ASIO drivers and anyway lag continues to be felt when increasing the number of tracks in an MPS. Something that doesn't happen on Mac. It is the same reason why until recently, and perhaps even today, all graphics and sound professionals use Mac systems instead of PCs. I don't mean to give free advertising to Apple, they are simply different philosophies of thought that have their pros and cons. The downside of Apple is certainly the price. For the same components, an Apple system costs 2-3 times more than a PC, but it is also true that one must add a fundamental component: namely, a fearsome assistance service that, in case of PC hardware/software malfunctions, delivers the device repaired within a time limit of one week. To be honest, much sooner; for me, to change a motherboard (due to a card reader malfunction) and the burner, they took 24 hours. I also have PCs like Vaio and HP, and they too gave me problems since I use them excessively. Returned after 30/60 days. Microsoft's philosophy of thought then translates into compatibility with third-party software, which until some time ago was different for Apple but has now caught up. Not to mention performance and system stability. I have had my Mac for more than a year... Loaded with software, turned on 24 hours a day. I have never encountered problems of any kind nor slowdowns. In short, returning to Pianoteq, I'm not saying it's junk, but I believe they still need to work on it a lot to be able to deliver a quality product. I tried using it also with PCs with SATA drivers and the problem persists. Let's be clear, it doesn't lag to death, but as someone used to playing with libraries on Mac, I felt the difference in performance. For me, it is definitely noticeable! It is not excluded that over time this software will improve and surpass libraries. The idea is certainly brilliant since you have 127 velocity levels, but they must improve the algorithm if they want to compete with the best libraries in circulation. Therefore, the consideration made by Pianoteq engineers is correct, saying that libraries have limited velocities since 8-13 dynamic levels per note are then extended to 127 via volume, thus losing timbral characteristics; however, it is also true that they offer a recorded sound, so naturally those harmonic ratios that would be created playing on a physical model are not created, but it is also true that the result is more pleasing to the ear, at least for now, and that is what matters. Many times, even in the field of audio, I have argued that just because a microphone costs 2000 euros doesn't mean the sound output is better than a 300 euro microphone. The final result that should interest us is the auditory output and, at least in my case, my personal opinion is that this Pianoteq does not, for now, have the characteristics to overwhelm the best samples available on the market, such as EastWest, Garritan, Sampletekk, the Old Lady Steinway, and other great samples...

Regards

The fact that they still have to work on it is not up for debate!

We are talking about two technologies that differ by several years in terms of development (in terms of development cycles, at least two generations)!

It would be unthinkable for the second to already be ahead of the first; it would mean that the first is rubbish, which is not true at all!

Regarding performance with different operating systems, Windows, as I said, is too "end-user and office oriented" to represent a realistic benchmark for real-time applications compared to Apple.

Unfortunately, at the moment (Giacomino has taken the HP Twin Multi processor superturbo - with Ubuntu on top - to Turin to do his aerospace engineering calculations!), I do not have a machine available with Linux on it, but as soon as I have a moment of time, I promise myself to carry out some checks there; this is also because Windows presents insurmountable limits, despite ASIO, in terms of the polyphony it can produce.

Regarding the use of a PC with SATA drivers, nothing changes, as the problem with PianoTeq is that it is CPU intensive, not I/O Bound, so it needs oil in the memory and the CPU.

As for Price/Performance and Price/Stability aspects, I would not want a partial comparison to be made (Windows <==> Apple).

I believe that Ubuntu outperforms both by far, even if it still has some way to go on the End-User interface road; for time-critical and business-oriented applications, Linux is now a de facto standard, and for Home applications, Ubuntu is a monster, making huge strides against the two competing platforms.

In short, everything remains as before!

Here too, it is a problem of how much money you have (on one hand), of tastes (on the other), and of time and willingness to study.

Bye and happy listening!

Ahaha I remind you that macOSX has a kernel very similar to Linux, if not almost identical...

You must lend me, one day, the Apple, so I can make up for my deficiency in the computer field!

Hello

At the very least. How can one say no to Gennarino ??

Undoubtedly very interesting this exchange of opinions between TheSimon and Gennarino, but since I was born ignorant and have never renounced my origins, I didn't understand a damn thing.

I know Pianoteq has improved over the years, like wine, but it still has a long way to go.

As for the demo of Eastwest Quantum Leap Pianos Gold (Steinway D), after listening to it again with excellent headphones, I must admit TheSimon is right: it really sounds like an acoustic piano.

@ Gennarino: no, it wasn't Teroldego from my cellar nor was it one of my performances with Piano Tequila, but I was told about a drunk lady with horns caught in the strings of a Model 290 Imperial, naturally Bösendorfer.

Boesendorfer wrote:

@ Gennarino: no, it wasn't Teroldego from my cellar nor was it one of my performances with Piano Tequila, but I was told about a drunk lady with horns caught in the strings of a Model 290 Imperial, naturally Bösendorfer.

Ahahahahahahahah, poor imperial !!

Let's get to serious things, I think I will buy this Eastwest library soon, the problem is that it costs almost 400 bananas and that's not a little! Considering that it is already discounted because they are running promotions on the eastwest website. I don't even dare imagine the real cost of this library which, among other things, is apparently said to be the best existing at the moment. Of course, the sound must always be listened to with headphones... With laptop speakers there isn't much to hear in detail. I will also post some other files from this library, not excluding piano and orchestra concertos. I try to specify that both the piano and the orchestra are not real but are all EastWest samples just to let you know how far we have come with samples. Ok, Pianoteq must improve but these aren't exactly standing still watching... eheheh

This library is composed of 4 pianos: Steinway D, for the happiness of our friend Boesendorfer a Bösendorfer 290, for Francesco's happiness a Bechstein D-280 and finally a Yamaha C7

Audio files:

Steinway D

Debussy Arabesque

Litolff Scherzo (Piano and orchestra) - They did a wonderful job on the sound rendering. Listen carefully with headphones! Beautiful !!

Bösendorfer 290

Debussy Reverie

Ligeti Etude 4 Fanfares

Bechstein D-290

Benda Piano concerto in G Maj

Bach Prelude

I sincerely thank TheSimon Gennarino and Boesendorfer, because I would have liked to raise this topic myself.

Not owning a real piano anymore (but I am not despairing!!) for years I have been listening to sampled sounds from keyboards, VSTs, digital pianos, marveling at the continuous progress in this field.

I have been trying Pianoteq for a few weeks and I must say it is pleasant, played with a good master keyboard.

I like the idea that it can be like a "piano android", i.e., a copy that aspires to be closer and closer to the original. Without ever, however, replacing it.

In short gentlemen, East West costs a fortune!! 😃