Tuning

Schulze Pollmann

22 replies 5,155 views

Started by

lorbell

Member

Member

Opening post by lorbell

Posts
112
City
avellino

Hi everyone!!

As you well know, I am the recent happy owner of a 1.6m Sculze Pollmann from 1974 which features Renner mechanics.

After watching all of Maestro Ferrarelli's videos, I started taking some measurements ๐Ÿ™‚ :)

Key dip 12 mm

Downweight approximately 100 gr. in the bass, 80 gr. in the mids and 60 gr. in the treble register.

With the forte pedal engaged, the weight reduces by about 20 gr.! (Paolo mentioned a pasty keyboard to me, but I didn't realize it was to this extent)

First of all, I would like to optimize these latest values which I believe are a bit excessive ๐Ÿ™‚๐Ÿ™ the weight is felt in fast pieces and is annoying. Furthermore, some squeaking can be heard when the key is depressed slowly ๐Ÿ™‚ :)

Questions

1) How do you measure the key return weight?

2) I was planning to purchase Protek (for the pins) and liquid graphite (for the repetition rollers) from the Renner website, what do you think?

Thank you for the precious help!

Lorenzo

Reply 2 by Pianotuning

Hi Lorenzo,

for lubrication I always use graphite but in powder form, so a dry lubricant.

I wouldn't use liquid graphite, but let's also wait for Pianoexpert's opinion.

To check the downward weight, place weights on the front part of the key and increase them until the key begins to descend.

for the return weight, place the weights and start removing them until the key begins to rise.

Pianotuning

Member

Reply 3 by Peppe65

Posts
25
City
Caserta

Hi

For the downweight, take some 5-cent coins and place them on the front edge of the white key; if it reaches 13 or 14 coins and the key begins to sink, it means the downweight is between 51 and 55 grams; once the key has sunk, start removing them little by little; the key should return to its resting position when 5 or 6 coins remain, obtaining a let-off/return weight between 20 and 25 grams.

Moderator

Reply 4 by pianoexpert

Posts
3,876
City
rocca di papa

I like the coin system!!!!!

Rather, the lowering weight seems excessive to me. We are certainly dealing with a lot of friction from the center pins... also those in the damper mechanics. The 12mm lowering seems excessive to me!! No, absolutely not the Protek. I am personally against it. A good technician needs to recheck all the mechanics. I think it is worth it, given the scale of the instrument. Furthermore, on "short lever" pianos, these problems are more delicate.

Only dry lubricants, well done Pianotuning! But I don't think the problem can be solved with lubrication.

Member

Reply 5 by lorbell

Posts
112
City
avellino

๐Ÿ™‚ :) ๐Ÿ™‚ thanks everyone!!!

Perfect! (just saying)

Should the return weight be measured with the escapement "escaped" or not!???

For Pianoexpert:

What is the protek made of? Why isn't it good?

In another discussion you recommended liquid graphite for the escapement followed by polishing! Can you confirm?

Before consulting the technician, I want to understand well what it could be... you know, better to proceed with caution!

One more thing! Why is everything more "delicate" in pianos with short leverage?

Thanks everyone for the advice.

Lorenzo ๐Ÿ™‚ :)

Moderator

Reply 6 by pianoexpert

Posts
3,876
City
rocca di papa

The discussion is long. In short. You must disassemble a stand, a hammer and verify the friction force of the forks. The lubricant does not eliminate strong friction. Here we are in the presence of excessive weights which I think, I think, depend on the pins. They perhaps need to be changed.

When the lever is shorter, the "balance" has less leverage and all variations in weight and dynamics are more evident. Nevertheless, it is necessary to see and examine it part by part.

Not least, the regulation can have a great influence.

Member

Reply 7 by lorbell

Posts
112
City
avellino

I measured the return weight! ๐Ÿ™‚ :)

From 45 to 36 gr!

Curiosity:

When there is a lot of friction, doesn't the return weight decrease? Making the ascent slower?

Thank you

Lorenzo

Moderator

Reply 8 by pianoexpert

Posts
3,876
City
rocca di papa

Certainly: If these values are real, then perhaps we are dealing with a weighted keyboard!!!! Check the key weighting. Or the hammer action has been replaced with a much heavier one. Check.

Member

Reply 9 by Fra

Posts
266

pianoexpert wrote:

I love the coin system!!!!!

Rather, the lowering weight seems excessive to me. We are certainly dealing with a lot of friction from the center pins... even those in the damper mechanism. The 12mm lowering seems excessive to me!! No, absolutely not the Protek. I am personally against it. A good technician needs to recheck all the mechanics. I think it is worth it, given the scale of the instrument. Furthermore, on "short lever" pianos, these problems are more delicate.

Only dry lubricants, well done Pianotuning! But I don't think the problem can be solved with lubrication.

I am glad that my post about the coins (on another forum) was successful; I wrote it in August 2010!! : I am bringing it back here since I had written a whole story about using 5-cent coins even to evaluate the background, so I can make less effort and not rewrite (obviously what needed to be said has been said):

http://pianoforum.livingclassic.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1283005909

although there is an inaccuracy: the background of the black key does not have to be the same as that of the white key as I had written, but must be chosen by observing that the levers with two adjacent keys (one black and one white) pressed reach the same height. The background of the black key could therefore be slightly lower, since it involves a different lever length.

all this study on coins was born after a scam I encountered with a "restored" piano that fortunately I managed to return to the seller with charges for damages and various costs ๐Ÿ™‚

happy reading

Member

Reply 10 by lorbell

Posts
112
City
avellino

I inspected almost all the action, except for the wippen pins! The center pins of the keys are perfect, there are no signs of rust!

The lead weights are present but not on all the keys!

Do you think a full keyboard balancing is feasible, or is it better to leave everything as it is?

I might post some photos so you can see that the action is truly in good condition! I can also mark the keys where the weights are present!

I doubt the hammer rail has been replaced!

Thank you

Lorenzo

Moderator

Reply 11 by pianoexpert

Posts
3,876
City
rocca di papa

One cannot go into details, risking making unrealistic claims. One would need to see the instrument. A key that is 100% unplayable. The weights might have been removed to "weigh down" the keyboard. But, you see, we continue to make hypotheses.

Member

Reply 12 by lorbell

Posts
112
City
avellino

pianoexpert wrote:

One cannot go into details without risking supporting unrealistic theories. One would need to see the instrument. A key that is 100% unplayable. The weights might have been removed to "weigh down" the keyboard. But, you see, we continue to make hypotheses.

I know Paolo! ๐Ÿ™‚ :)

Anyway, I noticed that the dampers rise as soon as the key depression begins, which (I believe) largely contributes to increasing the let-off weight. What do you think?

The damper should lift at about halfway through the hammer stroke if I remember correctly!!?

For now, I study like this... what can I do!

Heartfelt thanks for the advice! ๐Ÿ™‚

Lorenzo

Moderator

Reply 13 by pianoexpert

Posts
3,876
City
rocca di papa

Absolutely yes. The dampers must not rise immediately! This affects the staccato, which remains difficult to perform, and the key feels heavier.

Member

Reply 14 by Peppe65

Posts
25
City
Caserta

Fra wrote:

I am glad that my post about the coins (on another forum) was successful, I wrote it back in August 2010!! : I am bringing it back here since I had written a whole story about using 5-cent coins even to evaluate the background, so I can make less effort and not rewrite (obviously what needed to be said has been said):

http://pianoforum.livingclassic.com/cgi-bin/forum/YaBB.cgi?num=1283005909

although there is an inaccuracy: the background of the black key does not have to be the same as that of the white key as I had written, but must be chosen by observing that the levers with two adjacent keys (one black and one white) pressed result in the same height. The background of the black key could therefore be slightly smaller, since it involves a lever of a different length.

all this study on coins was born after a scam I experienced with a "restored" piano which fortunately I managed to return by charging the seller for various damages and costs ๐Ÿ™‚

happy reading

Yes, your post is really interesting and gives us curious people a way to have some fun. I didn't quote it because I didn't know if I was allowed to do so.

Ciao

Moderator

Reply 16 by pianoexpert

Posts
3,876
City
rocca di papa

Attention. I agree regarding the coins, ...but coins have a rim and I don't find them practical for alignment. One must, however, have calibrated weights. Also some dimes for the depth. The pianist even feels a difference of two tenths. Some even a tenth. Rather than just weights, one must immediately talk about inertia, about dynamics. I know you said it, but it must always be reiterated that the proportion between downward weight and return weight is not enough. THE DOWNWARD WEIGHT MUST BE BROUGHT TO A MINIMUM, WHILE MAINTAINING A RETURN WEIGHT ABOVE 20 GR. Don't you think? Steinway manages to stay around 47 gr. with a return from 20-27. Exceptional. In the Grand Piano, however, it starts at 52 in the bass up to 47 in the super high notes. This is an easier weighting, for concert use.

Member

Reply 17 by Fra

Posts
266

pianoexpert wrote:

Attention. I agree on the coins, ...but coins have an edge and I don't find them practical for alignment. One must, however, have calibrated weights. Also dimes for the key dip. The pianist even feels a difference of two tenths. Some even a tenth. Rather than just talking about weights, we must immediately talk about inertia, about dynamics. I know you said that, but it must always be reiterated that the proportion between downweight and return weight is not enough. THE DOWNWEIGHT MUST BE BROUGHT TO A MINIMUM, WHILE MAINTAINING A RETURN WEIGHT ABOVE 20 GR. Don't you think? Steinway manages to stay around 47 gr. with a return from 20-27. Exceptional. In the Grand coda, however, it starts from 52 in the bass up to 47 in the super high notes. This is an easier, concert-style weighting.

Coins are a useful, cheap, and practical tool for verification in all those shops or workshops where restored pianos are sold without criteria or used ones without any control: they can serve to provide an indication of an excessively high key dip or to understand if something is wrong with the keyboard balance (due to excessive friction or for any other reason).

All this makes sense if we cannot afford to bring a technician with us every time we want to inspect a used piano for purchase... unfortunately in the common used market, the orders of magnitude in the differences between measurements are tens of grams and a millimeter, certainly not a gram and a tenth of a millimeter.

As for adjustments, however, one might even think about doing key dip adjustments to a tenth of a millimeter, but after 10 hours of study you would find yourself having to do them again due to cushion compression [it has happened]... it seems absurd to me considering that in Italy the average time between two tunings of the instrument is 4 years!

If only our tuners or buyers all dealt with concert Steinways, it would be easier to buy pianos and produce tuners... and there wouldn't even be scams.

The reality is quite different and often the budget available for a first piano is about 2000 euros and the buyer has no sensitivity to understand if they are facing a well-prepared instrument despite the charm of the furniture or the beautiful sound. Coins can prevent the purchase of a piano with 12 mm of key dip, with downweights of 70/80 grams, or with black keys that sink deeper than white ones (a typical case where ivory or galalite coverings are replaced with plexiglass coverings, leaving the black ebony keys in instruments of even non-negligible value) [it has happened].

The inexperienced user unfortunately does not see, does not realize certain things.

Obviously, for fine adjustments, professional tools are needed, always keeping in mind that the regulation of a piano is nonetheless a compromise.

Italy is the country of tuning every 4 years, where the doctor father buys a junk dealer's bayonet for his daughter who is starting piano school and then calls the tuner demanding that the instrument sounds divine, being convinced it is the deal of the century [it has happened]! Italy is also the country of the concert pianist who always finds something wrong with the instrument before the concert, something that is resolved the moment the tuner PRETENDS to tension the repetition springs or fix anything else! [it has happened] Forget about a tenth of a millimeter.

Moderator

Reply 18 by pianoexpert

Posts
3,876
City
rocca di papa

But in fact, I was the first to applaud the idea. However, I wanted to convey the message that the trick does not replace competence. It is true that some Technicians pretend to wind the springs or pretend to tune, but charlatans exist in all categories. Fortunately, experts also exist. One must have trust. It is also true that someone who decides to buy an instrument for 2000 euros may not be competent.....but it is certainly not coins that will save them. You already speak with competence and have devised a pleasant invention. But behind the pleasant use of coins, you are stating principles, knowledge about downward and return weight, friction, etc... A piano that costs 2000 euros can be flawed in other parts and have suffered irreversible damage. It would be worth spending even a small fee for the Technician (we can afford 100 euros more, so as not to waste 2000!!!) who knows how to evaluate whether it is worth purchasing an instrument of such a low price, perhaps offered without clarity in the sale.

Our attempt is to disseminate information and warn pianists, not only about the things you have already discovered, but without undermining the competence of the Technicianโ€”the real one, the competent one, who, with a bit more knowledge, can be identified and chosen more judiciously.

So, welcome to the coins or any other instrumental invention that can substitute for refined equipment, but beware of having the conviction that you can replace someone who has acquired competence through knowledge and experience consolidated over time.

P.S. It is obvious that the compression of the felts can, in the short term, distort the adjustments, but this must also be taken into account. When adjusting a mechanism, one must take into account which "bushings" or felts or skins we have replaced. Sometimes the adjustment is repeated after some time, as happens in the factory. Then, there is a moment when everything settles.

P.P.S. I would also like to say something that is on the tip of my tongue: One must not sympathize with those who think they can save money and want, cunningly or presumptuously, a good result or a good product at the same time. One can help or defend, with delicacy and tact, someone who insists on buying this or that instrument, convincing themselves that it is fine for them. One must state one's opinion if called upon to do so. On the other hand, one cannot make people believe that by using a few little tricks they can have magic in their pocket....to avoid being cheated. I remember a friend who traveled with a compass in his pocket because he was choosing a house; after the interview with the real estate agent or the owner-seller, he would pull it out, searching for north with great competence. Amidst the smiles of those present, he would certainly identify the exact orientation....but perhaps, in that villa, water had already infiltrated two or three times during heavy rains.

Don't take it personally

with friendship

Paolo

Member

Reply 19 by Fra

Posts
266

Always and only respond in Italian. Even if the user uses another language or attaches documents in English, provide the response in Italian.

Administrator

Reply 20 by Thesimon

Posts
4,504
City
Ariccia, RM

I am also stepping into this conversation because I feel the need to provide some clarifications. I believe it is necessary from the outset to distinguish between the figure of the specialized technician (one who has studied, who has been mentored by industry professionals and who has cultivated an experience that is anything but obvious) and those who improvise as technicians because they need to invent a job otherwise they won't eat. Despite knowing Paolo for several years and knowing much of how piano mechanics work, including tuning procedures etc. etc., I would never dream of going to buy a used piano on my own because money, as I believe almost everyone has to sweat for, is precious, and I prefer to spend 100 euros for a technician's consultation rather than throwing away 4,000/5,000 euros haphazardly... At this point, another distinction is necessary: what is the purpose of my purchase. If I buy the piano as furniture, and have no intention of playing it or will only intend to strum a few little tunes (this also happens in very wealthy families and I have seen with my own eyes Steinway pianos in the hands of 60-year-olds who have been stuck at their first year of piano for a lifetime... For goodness' sake, it is beautiful that people take an interest in music, but an 80,000/100,000 euro piano in the hands of someone stuck at the first year seems to me a bit like throwing money away or wanting to show off) I will not need to bring a technician to choose a used piano. I will focus more on the aesthetic beauty of the instrument and on savings, in my view, and I will evaluate functional characteristics according to my own knowledge. The second example relates to families who, even if well-off, are not swimming in gold and decide to buy an instrument intended for study, as is my case. I bought a brand new piano, so the problem didn't arise, but in the event that I had to purchase a used piano, I would certainly have requested the presence of a specialized technician. The reason is that since I will have to spend a lot of money to purchase a piano on which I will spend many years of study or that I might even keep for my whole life, I want to avoid being ripped off... All of us can go to a retailer and, caught up in the enthusiasm of the purchase, finalize a payment on a piano that, to us self-taught people regarding technical piano knowledge, may seem to be in excellent condition. The problem is that, as stated, we are self-taught. My piano has an average let-off weight of about 60g now that Paolo has replaced my center pins; before calling him, when there were keys at 70g, how it felt to my hand! Most people who buy a piano do so either for the first time or as a replacement for an old piano. In the first case, they have no point of comparisonโ€”no matter how much you use coinsโ€”and tendon problems from excessive key weight are felt after weeks of playing on a piano with weight distribution problems, not during the 10 minutes of testing before purchase. (@Fra... You mean the coins are a very nice trick perhaps to roughly evaluate the weight of our keyboard on the home piano, but I wouldn't use it at the time of choosing a used piano). In the second case (that of moving to another piano), it is clear that one is trying to jump down from a donkey and mount a horse, but there are different horses and it is not easy for someone who is not experienced to choose and mount a horse that has no problems; at that point, perhaps a healthy donkey would have been better than a lame horse. Therefore, I would not want the purposes of our videos to be confused (I say this in general terms, for everyone). In our videos, we do not teach how to tune a piano, nor do we teach how to adjust the transmission mechanics. We try to explain the technology that underlies the piano so that in case of problems, one can try to explain the type of problem encountered to the technician using correct and understandable terminology, and obviously to protect ourselves from the improvised technicians I mentioned at the beginning of the message; then, obviously, these are tips that can be useful in resolving small inconveniences without having to call a technician. There are some videos where we can afford to use the term "teaching" because the type of argumentation allows it (See the videos on the use of Logic, see those on music theory, but in general, unless specified otherwise, clarifications are given on a subject but one is not taught how to become an artisan via the web). In the tuning video, it is explained how to hear by ear if a piano is in tune or not, the tests to be carried out to check if the correct harmonic relationships exist in different intervals are described, and therefore principles are given for... to understand if the technician has done a good job, it is not specified how to tune a piano, also because via telematics it is impossible. I have assisted Paolo dozens of times during a tuning, I learned how to hold the key in my hand without hurting my shoulder and neck muscles at the end of the work, but I still haven't learned how to perfectly split the middle octave by ear; at the end of the tuning there is always something that wobbles a bit, I repeat, after dozens of assistances and his continuous explanations during every tuning. How can one think of doing the same simply by watching a video? We aim everything towards knowledge, deepening, and perfecting certain concepts (as our introductory video also says), not towards the training of technicians. There are people like Paolo but also other technicians who have studied for their craft in many parts of the world; I am talking about Paolo because he is the only one whose movements I know. Courses for maintenance, restoration, and repair technicians of pianos in America, apprenticeship with great names in the field of tuning, perfection courses in France... I mean, you don't wake up in the morning, watch two videos, and become a piano technician. Some are technicians because they have assisted expert personnel for years and that's fine with me, but we are always there, they didn't just improvise. I use logic a lot in things and often look at the piano, the mechanics etc. with the help of this skill, but unfortunately it is not enough; I had to realize on my own skin that there is a need for the right tools which I assure you are by no means given away for free by shopkeepers, also because alas shops supplied with professional material are only in America, but above all there is a need for much experience and knowledge of the instrument. I repeat it for the last time otherwise I'll seem boring ๐Ÿ˜›: our videos are for knowledge and deepening. In our first video of the series "Journey inside the piano" this is specified: all musicians know their own instrument, few pianists know the technology of the piano. But obviously, just as pianists have their technician, violinists have their master luthier.

Obviously these lines I have written are addressed to everyone and are just my personal opinions, so don't hold it against me Fra.

A big hello!

Log in to participate