That somewhat military imprint

Ludwig's intrinsic quality is that he turns questions into answers! (Karl Kraus would be pleased with me).

I had prepared a wonderful long, long, long-winded rant that would have crushed you, moving from the creation of "first-level" marches, namely WoO 18, 18 20 etc... to passing to "second-level" marches like those conceived for Fidelio or for the incidental music for "The Ruins of Athens," ending with the sublimation of march rhythms for the Diabelli variations; perhaps the whole thing was intended to redeem you from your heresy. But, in fact, the wise men of the Holy Inquisition (now become the benefactors of Opus Dei) have shown me the Way (perhaps they would have convinced you with fire)......

Finally, I noticed this: B.'s earthly work is itself a march: it is born from the Variations on a Theme by Dressler WoO 63 and fades away with the immortal pizzicato march of the quartet Opus 135. Wonderful, from mere floral repetition to the sublimation of the memory of little Ludwig playing marches at the court of the Prince-Elector, or listening to them in the streets of old Bonn. Later, inflamed by his hometown university, he absorbed the ideas of the Revolution, but for some years the notes of Gossec, Méhul, Grétry and Claude Joseph Rouget de Lisle himself had been playing—the author (besides the anthem we all know) of numerous marches played by band formations. Over 35,000 of these songs traceable to the revolutionary period have already been cataloged, but the investigation does not fully capture the sociological complexity of the phenomenon. A song is not a faithful account: throughout the revolutionary period, it was a means of political propaganda intended to strike the audience, with a vast rhetorical apparatus, and the author does not care at all about the truthfulness of the facts. But this IS Beethoven! The finale of the Ninth IS the sublimated revolutionary representation of Schillerian fraternal conception. This alone should make you unconditionally love B.'s "great march" towards the ineffable. (and without the Red Book. And without the long-winded rant.)

Friendship------------------------------------------------------------

I imagined that, albeit politely, I would take some hits

If anyone else wanted to give their point of view ...

From my point of view, the figure of Beethoven fits into a historical context characterized by the French Revolution (1789-1815, with which the feudal system ends) and by political/social and civil upheavals of significant scope, with the consequent transformation of the cultural and artistic reality of the era.

Enlightenment ideas, faith in the ideals of reason, liberty, and heroism, and the exaltation of patriotic and moral virtues are inherited from the French Revolution; also Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821), for some time, receives the sympathy and admiration of many intellectuals from different nations thanks to the reform of the civil, penal, and commercial codes.

In that period, however, music does not undergo major transformations, although the French Revolution favors a change in musical customs, in enjoyment, and in the relationship between composer, performer, and audience. During the revolutionary period, music serves a celebratory function and is an important element for public functions and demonstrations involving the masses, with the aim of obtaining the population's consensus by transmitting political messages through music: military marches, patriotic songs, hymns, odes to liberty, nature, etc.

Great importance is given to hymns, marches, and funeral cantatas performed in public celebrations in honor of fallen heroes. Musicians adapt to the requests of revolutionary leaders by composing simple motifs performed by large instrumental masses, with choirs singing in unison with highly impactful performances; all this was often performed in large outdoor spaces using fanfares and percussion instruments. The most famous song of the revolutionary period is known as “Le chant de guerre pour l’armee du Rhin” (known as the Marseillaise, with words and music by Claude Joseph de Lisle composed in 1792, and from 1879, the French national anthem).

Notable composers include F. J. Gossec (1734-1829), L. Cherubini (1760-1842), and J. F. Le Sueur (1760-1837). The musical production of this repertoire becomes widespread thanks to the publication of the monthly magazine titled “Le magasine de musique,” a journal founded in 1794 where an Association of 51 musicians, including Gossec and Cherubini, with government support, obtained economic benefits, thus becoming artist/publishers. Great momentum was given to musical education with the founding of the “Ecole de musique de la garde nationale” and the “Ecole royale de chant,” which later became the “Institut National de Musique”; in 1795, the “Conservatoire National de Musique” was established, and based on this model, other Conservatories were founded (Milan, Bologna, Naples).

The grandeur and solemnity of the compositions of this era constitute the premise for the production of symphonic music of the Romantic era (a significant example is given by the grandeur in Berlioz's orchestra). Beethoven was also influenced by these new musical currents, even though he did not manifest sympathy toward the French Revolution; throughout his life, he would place great importance on the ideals of brotherhood, liberty, and respect for human rights. The monumental style of French derivation is present in symphonies No. 3 and 5 and in the Egmont Overture, as well as in the piano sonata in A-flat major Op. 26 with the second movement titled “Funeral March for a Hero” (this new style is defined as “Heroic”).

Some will make the necessary clarifications.

In terms of personal taste, what can I say …?... eheh

I have always had a weakness for Beethoven, in particular for the man who cries out his pain… rather than the one who bends to the commissions and the taste of his time.

If I were to propose my top five favorite composers again, many things would change; Beethoven has always held an honorable place even if (as I was saying a moment ago) I "endured" the pieces where that typical march-like rhythm is very evident. Probably today he would be off the list; in fact, there is a high probability that I would struggle to complete a list of five, not because there are too many names to include… but precisely because of the few certain ones I would feel comfortable putting in.

Obviously, a work by Beethoven is always listened to and enjoyed

Rotore wrote:

What do you think about the fact that Beethoven's works often suffer from these somewhat march-like rhythms? Let's say... military?

A me, where it is very evident, it gets on my nerves a bit. I wouldn't want to be branded a heretic, but I am also interested in the opinion of even the most die-hard Beethoven lovers.

And where does it seem evident to you, for example?

Carlos wrote:

And where does it appear evident to you, for example?

A bit in general, much less in pre-romantic pieces and anyway very evident specifically in those that belong to the heroic style.

Frank wrote:

Obviously a work by Beethoven is always listened to and enjoyed

Well, of course!

Rotore wrote:

A bit in general, much less in pre-romantic pieces and anyway very evident specifically in those belonging to the heroic style.

Well, but could you name at least three pieces where it seems "evident" to you, or are you afraid? There are at least two very famous ones; I would like to understand if we are talking about the same thing. And I would like to understand in which ones (where it is less "evident") you still find this aspect annoying. Otherwise, speaking in general...

Let's just say I really can't stomach the third symphony ... I know it's a problem with me

Rotore wrote:

Let's just say that the third symphony really doesn't sit well with me ... I know it's my problem

Damn... I would have expected the Fifth (if the last movement isn't "marcato"), Egmont (if the finale isn't "marcato")... but the "Eroica"? Where is it "marcato"? (don't say there's the "Funeral March", please... )

Of course, they are the works also cited by Frank... but in both (the 5th and Egmont) there are several moments where it is well hidden... so I find a bit of solace.

The third one gives me heartburn... what can I do... anyway, the funeral march does its part

Rotore wrote:

Of course, they are the works also cited by Frank... but in both (the 5th and 'Egmont) there are several moments where it is well hidden... so I find a bit of relief.

The third one gives me heartburn... what can I do... anyway, the funeral march does its part

But couldn't it simply be that you don't like the Eroica, regardless of the "marcistic" element (anyway, it is said "martial": now I'll stop saying marcistic because that's what gives me heartburn...)?

I mean: if for you in the Fifth and in 'Egmont "there are several moments where it is well hidden", in the Eroica I would like to understand where you find martial elements, because the Funeral March is one of the most sublime moments of all Beethovenian symphonism and there is only one truly overtly martial moment, and I am referring to mm. 158-167 (ten bars!); in the Fifth we are talking about the entire last movement, in 'Egmont we are talking about the entire final Allegro (mm. 287-247). If those are hidden moments, in the Eroica you shouldn't even notice them. I am nonetheless curious to know the other works of Beethoven where you find this type of language: there are quite a few, I would like to understand what bothers you and also which elements you are referring to in the Eroica, because evidently I haven't understood well what it is that "gives you heartburn".

But be careful: you wrote that "Beethoven's works often suffer from these somewhat marcistic rhythms" and so far you haven't clarified what "these rhythms" are and we have spoken (we, not you) of only two symphonies, you of a third. Beethoven wrote 9, he wrote 32 sonatas, he wrote 17 quartets, trios with piano... "Often" at this point needs to be redefined (by you) by providing a somewhat more substantial number of examples, what do you say?

PS look, I don't want to "defend" Beethoven a priori, let me be clear: but since the subject is decidedly interesting, I would like to approach it on the basis of common knowledge (if there is any) that I cannot yet identify. I mean that if your rejection of Beethoven's "martial" element is confined to the Eroica, before talking about it together you should have a good feast of his music and we could talk about it again perhaps in a few months...

I agree with Carllos's approach, I also made mention of the piano sonata in A-flat major Op. 26 with the second movement titled “Funeral March for a Hero”.

Shall we talk about Piano Concerto No. 3 in C minor, Op. 37?

Allegro con brio: the movement seems to draw inspiration from the tension of the key of C minor in Mozart's K. 491 Concerto, but it carries a march rhythm; it refers back to the "military" concertos of Viotti.

But in the Rondo, which follows the A-B-A/C- development of A/A-B-A scheme, there are practically four repetitions of the main theme and three episodes, of which the first and third are similar.

The piano, then the orchestra, then the piano again alternately present the theme, but the wind chords execute a dotted rhythm, like in a march.

Elements like these undermine my relationship with the master a little....

... what do you all think?

Carlos wrote:

I mean, if your rejection of Beethoven's "martial" element is confined to the Eroica, before we discuss it together you should have a good feast of his music and perhaps we could talk about it again in a few months...

Let's not exaggerate, it's not as if I've only listened to a couple of Beethoven pieces. It simply seems to me that this thing is a recurring element... and it sticks out a bit during listening. It is absolutely not a matter of life and death

Zapping through my mp3s a bit... String Quartet op. 59 no. 1 "Razumovsky", in the Allegro the melody is definitely a bit march-like.

What do you think?

Rotore wrote:

Shall we talk about Piano Concerto No. 3 in C minor, Op. 37?

Allegro con brio; the movement seems to draw inspiration from the tension of the C minor key in Mozart's K. 491 Concerto, but it carries a march rhythm; it refers back to the "military" concertos of Viotti.

Indeed, in my opinion, even the 491 carries a "march rhythm" if you think about it... I suspect you simply don't like "rhythmic" things...

Rotore wrote:

But in the Rondo, which follows the A-B-A/C- development of A/A-B-A scheme, there are practically four repetitions of the main theme and three episodes, of which the first and third are similar. The piano, then the orchestra, then the piano again alternately present the theme [...]

It's a Rondo for a reason...

Rotore wrote:

[...] but the wind chords execute a dotted rhythm, like in a march.

I mean, are you telling me that "pam pam pa-pam" is enough for you? Fine then, I won't try to convince you anymore...

Rotore wrote:

Doing a bit of zapping through my mp3s... String Quartet Op. 59 No. 1 "Razumovsky", in the Allegro the melody is definitely a bit march-like.

First of all, as I was telling you, "march-like" (marcistico) doesn't exist. But let's move past that. Furthermore: by "zapping," did you realize it's not the melody of Op. 59 No. 1 that is marked, but the accompaniment? Or do you think it's the same thing? Try playing that melody without the accompaniment (that's what you should do with the Eroica: try playing the theme of the first movement without the string repetitions underneath; you would see that there are two contrasting elements, one horizontal and one vertical, moving forward together; it is called the dialectic of elements and is typical of Ludovico).

Rotore wrote:

Elements like these undermine my relationship with the Great One a bit....

In my opinion, you know too little about the Great One to claim to have a relationship with his music. I advise you, as I did today, to listen to much more and better. It doesn't necessarily have to please you, but from the way you speak, you know him in a very superficial way. Instead of zapping and only looking for pieces that prove your theory, you should look for all the others—there are many of them, trust me!

In my opinion, you know too little about the Maestro to claim to have a relationship with his music. I advise you, as I did today, to listen to much more of it and more deeply. It doesn't necessarily have to please you, but from the way you speak, you know him in a very superficial way. Instead of channel surfing and only looking for the pieces that prove your theory, you should look for all the others; there are many of them, trust me!

I have the same feeling as Carlos. Perhaps Giovanni Bietti, with his music lessons, can make you change your mind|

http://www.radio3.rai.it/dl/radio3/programmi/PublishingBlock-4e02a2ec-4046-486f-b7b2-54b8a5ab86ab-podcast.html?refresh_ce

Red-Black White on the background and light blue.... personally I like it because it is very, very blue-circled, and I am a Sampdorian; furthermore, I appreciate the suggestion, which is very timely. I am not convinced about the bold text; it seems like a small attack on Rotore, who instead reaches results that are perhaps biased by a partial listening—in no case shareable—but always very polite and within the lines. I respect him very much. Sincerely, I have never thought of dotted rhythm (marcato is a very ugly word; it sounds so much like "compost" or soil irrigated by water... in fact, I am convinced it doesn't even exist in our vocabulary--- I will investigate) as a standalone element in Beethovenian production; the dotted rhythm (even if hidden) is an integral part of the primal idea in B. That is to say, most (if not almost all) sketches start from a dotted note. Examples! examples: the sketches for the Fifth (think of the finale of this symphony: a glaring example of his modus operandi). And then a clamorous example is the youthful piano and orchestra concerto WoO 4, with its statement that falls exactly into the aforementioned style. Extraordinarily, the Missa Solemnis has not yet emerged with its exciting calls of trumpets and trombones in the Gloria or in the passage "Et vitam venturi", which so much remind one of Haydn's "Missa in Tempore Belli"..... and the fanfares in the third movement of the Ninth??? In short: Beethoven himself is the idea of the march; his life was understood as combat, and even his work is affected by this, both voluntarily and subliminally. He composed a great deal for military bands and I truly take pleasure in it; furthermore, he composed many lieder with a military edge, such as Abschiedsgesang an Wiens Bürger: Keine Klage soller erschallen WoO 121 and Kriegslied der Österreicher: Ein grosses Deutsches Volk sind wir WoO 122 and others, not to mention actual marches: WoO 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24....... The military fascination led him to assert that if "He (Beethoven) had been a general, he would have beaten him," that one (Napoleon). He called his collaborators "aide-de-camp" "assistant" "captain" etc.... and reserved for himself a modest "generalissimo" and sometimes signed off like that even in letters.... finally, he thought of the army to steer his nephew Karl toward a new life (and, in effect, he succeeded). I would be blaspheming if I said that the Beethovenian military river, like a karst spring, will emerge again into the light in the other great one: Mahler? But yes, let's blaspheme, for I am sure I can find a complacent priest to absolve me! As for the march rhythm, perhaps it would be worth reading the wonderful book "Dreamers, Utopians and Deserters in the Military Lieder of Gustav Mahler" by Alberto Rizzuto. An excellent synthesis of Mahlerian-Beethovenian exegesis.

Ad majora!