3rd Lesson-the Ionian Tonal organization AND the Lydian Tonal organization- 2nd Part -

Hi Modale, I had understood that sooner or later something practical would arrive (exercises)... when will we be able to indulge ourselves and do some "guided" experimentation?

Excuse me, Egidio, I don't know exactly what you mean by "guided experiment," let me know.

Anyway, I have published a recording titled "EXCERPT DORIAN SOUND".

In truth, I see little interest around the topic of modality. For me, this is a deterrent.

thanks for the interest. see you soon

Actually, regarding Modal, in response to my first questions I was told that I would understand in the subsequent lessons, so I am reading while waiting to find the right moment to ask

I wouldn't want to get ahead of the contents of the next lessons with my questions...

modale wrote:

Sorry, Egidio, I don't know exactly what you mean by "guided experiment," let me know.

... I was talking about exercises and metaphorically I was referring to a comparison of our "experiments" in the sense that one learns something theoretical, tries it out, and compares themselves with others.

And you yourself were saying a few lessons ago:

modale wrote:

I am publishing the first part of the second lesson, the second one shortly.

Practical exercises will follow.

Exactly: "Practical exercises will follow"

If it remains merely theoretical ... I think it's obvious that it's hard to follow. Perhaps that's why it seems like interest is waning ...

Now a doubt occurs to me, is it possible that you proposed some exercises and I missed them?

modale wrote:

In truth, I see little interest around the topic of modality.

What kind of feedback do you expect? ... I am following [along]

It is not easy to explain so many things through a forum; in person, things would certainly go better. Regarding the exercises, I believe they must partly be devised by the reader based on theory; it is also up to you to put theory into practice. It is not simple to write hundreds of notes on a staff and publish them on the forum; it would take too much time! Perhaps the important step in everything we say lies precisely in this: "starting from theory and creating exercises for oneself". The goal is to UNDERSTAND THE THEORY WELL, and on this, you have my full availability.

Besides, in the piece (which isn't really a piece) that I published, if you look closely, it is built in "sectors"; each sector expresses a way of approaching the "Dorian mode" from an executive point of view. If you use these sectors, each one can be considered an exercise. (It's true, I hadn't said this before...). Of course, one must delve into the subject... and this is achieved gradually. The important thing is that when you speak of "theory," you should know that it is not an intuition yet to be proven, but rather a demonstrated fact that is described; it is already reality. This awareness should enable you to create exercises for yourselves. If we were to meet in person, believe me, I would tell you the same things regarding exercises: in modal harmony, it makes no sense to propose written exercises because modal harmony is invention, fantasy; from now on, you must adopt the mindset of being autonomous. Tonalists are not entirely autonomous, first of all because at the base of every composition there is a theme and a sequence of chords, so it is like a train on tracks—everything is obligatory; this is not meant to be a criticism but merely a description of a difference between the tonal and the modal. However, I want to emphasize these issues so that each of you has clear ideas about the music you want to play and the choices to be made.

I say to Martina, who asks me what feedback I expect: nothing in particular, just feeling the presence of those who are interested, obviously. Following along without making oneself heard is a bit like being there without being seen.

A warm greeting to all everyone.

...but yes, we are there, it's just that we are shy ... and messy, cursed three-year and two-year programs

I am catching up on a few things, in the sense that over the last month I have been very busy... on the other hand, it is a forum, not a job

That being said, I am referring to this specific question from Modale in relation to the topic

modale wrote:

A vision of tonal organization that allows one to overcome the "tonal cage."

What do you think?

From what I have seen, it is something neither more nor less similar to other cages, while respecting one's own sacrosanct choices (which goes without saying), certainly a theoretically fascinating topic with its practical implications.

An aesthetic that doesn't quite grab me 100%, but which I am trying to understand to satisfy my need for curiosity, which for now is still alive

modale wrote:

why modal harmony is invention, fantasy

...sorry, go tell that to Stravinsky. What does a sound system (modal harmony) have to do with creativity?

If you were referring to the approach, if I haven't missed anything lately, the sound system would still be left out.

Ideas?

Dear Frank, I sense that you are an expert in the field, so I believe I must give you a technical answer:

The tonal system based on an Ionian scale is limited compared to the system based on a Lydian scale for the simple fact that the Ionian scale possesses two tonics. E.g.: C Ionian possesses the two tonics C and F, so the harmony is practically limited to II-V-I; in a Lydian system, e.g.: C Lydian, there is only one tonic, which is C, so the harmony is no longer delimited.

Moreover, the harmonic system, which is a mathematical system, is similar to geometry in certain respects. We know, in fact, that only one straight line passes through two points, whereas an infinite number of lines pass through a single point.

modale wrote:

Otherwise, the harmonic system, which is a mathematical system, is similar to geometry in certain respects. We know, in fact, that only one straight line passes through two points, whereas an infinite number of lines pass through one point.

...and from 12 points?

modale wrote:

The tonal system based on an Ionian scale is limited compared to the system based on a Lydian scale for the simple fact that the Ionian scale possesses two tonics. E.g.: C Ionian possesses the two tonics C and F, so harmony is practically limited to II-V-I; in the Lydian system, e.g.: C Lydian, there is only one tonic, which is C, so harmony is no longer delimited.

Moreover, the harmonic system, which is a mathematical system, is similar to geometry in certain respects. We know, in fact, that only one straight line passes through two points, whereas infinite lines pass through one point.

Dearest Modale, I understand your point of view and the “geometric” metaphor opens up so many discussions that an entire book would be needed to truly understand each other... not just a few lines in a post.

I will only dwell on the fact that, in my opinion, every musician should also take a communication course; I say this because the only rule that truly matters in music is that of sensuality, which is at the base of effective communication.

Sensuality is that lever that acts on desire, allowing the listener to desire something and to greedily follow the evolution of the piece.

The object of contention should arrive, deny itself, reappear... hide itself. You know the famous “I see but I don't see”? And I specify that the object is musical content, so not necessarily a melody.

That being said, everything else is a means, including harmonic content. Perhaps you feel the need to pass a million lines through the same point; there are those who want to pass one through two points, those interested in the 12 points, those who are fed up with the 12 points and seek different “temperaments,” etc.

One thing is certain: if sensuality is missing... the result is a failure.

My “note” is linked to the concept that emerges from these lines of yours (or that I perceive) and which I should have quoted in full:

“If we were to meet in person, believe me, I would tell you the same things regarding exercises; in modal harmony, it makes no sense to propose written exercises, because modal harmony is invention, fantasy; from now on, you will have to enter the mindset of being autonomous. Tonalists are not entirely autonomous, first of all because at the base of every composition there is a theme and a sequence of chords, so it is like a train on tracks; everything is obligatory.”

Here it might be appropriate to say: “tell that to Wagner,” and in any case, “invention and fantasy” are not exclusive to modal harmony.

Furthermore, I would have the instinct to list a thousand tonal masterpieces for you, perhaps compare them and verify in the field how much or how little there is in terms of autonomy on the part of the composer.

“this is not intended to be a criticism but merely a description of a difference between the tonal and the modal; however, I want to emphasize these issues so that each of you has clear ideas about the music you want to play and the choices to be made.”

Exactly a choice—it's a pity, however, that the landscape is not just modal or just tonal. These are only 2 of many reference systems. But I add a question: perhaps there is a lack of strength to create one's own?

This is a more modern conception if we really want to talk about creativity, and I write this aware of the difficulties a composer may encounter specifically in relation to sensuality.

Clearly, my discourse is not directed at you, your sacrosanct choices, or your results, and it does not inhibit me from satisfying my curious spirit, so I gladly follow your reasoning.

Hi Frank, I gave a technical answer because the question also seemed technical to me.

As for the rest, I think like you regarding sensuality......I am convinced that music is a wild grass and not a garden plant.

I published some theoretical articles and a piece: "Excerpt dorian sound" to demonstrate how the soul uses theory to express itself. 0 comments on this piece. This demonstrates that interest in modal harmony is extremely low; moreover, my goal was to create a bulwark against the rampant predominance of tonal harmony, which would have benefited tonal harmony itself because right now it is hypertrophic and risks disintegrating.

Having made these considerations and seeing that I do not consider what I do to be useful, I am inclined to re-evaluate the path I have taken.

A thanks to those who followed me.

for those who wish to follow me:

http://www.armoniamodale.blogspot.it/

Aside from being sorry about this choice of yours, as soon as you proposed the seminar I asked you:

JamSession wrote:

Curiosity, why not original compositions? I think a historical framework is necessary, so to go through the various masterpieces that perhaps led to understanding the method in a certain way... today.

Despite the declared manifestations of interest for the seminar, your last post is this:

modale wrote:

I have published some theoretical articles and a piece: "Excerpt dorian sound" to demonstrate how the soul uses theory to express itself. 0 comments on said piece.

... and finally: "for whoever wants to follow me"

In short, those who love me should follow me... and as they say, I was interested in the "Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization"... let's hope you change your mind, otherwise we are left only with George Russell's book.

I am happy about Jamsession's interest, but I would still like to clarify one thing: Russell's text practically deals with the use of modal scales within tonal harmony. Modal Harmony is something else and, in reality, it is little addressed in texts except for brief mentions, and in fact, it is rather mistreated in many valid texts on tonal harmony. If you go back to review my path project, you will find the 4 phases I set out to complete.

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/832-premessa-armonia-e-composizione-modale/

We find true modal harmony in other cultures, such as Asian ones; this does not mean we must imitate their phrasing (it is already enough to have imitated African-American music!), for us Mediterraneans it is perhaps easier and more natural to rediscover the modal music that is in our DNA—we just need to shake off the cultural superstructures that do not belong to us, even if it is difficult. From Asian music we should take the harmony and the concepts; the phrasing, then, is personal.

True modal music belongs to a few classical musicians like Vincent Persichetti and to a few jazz musicians like J. Coltrane's final phase.

It is not that one must be obliged to play full modalism, but to know a path, one must know the beginning and the end of the journey! The beginning is the music of the ancient Greeks; the end is Persichetti and Coltrane (I am giving examples). Each of us then chooses how to express themselves, but the most important thing is knowing what "Modal Harmony" is. Technically, a mode is a set of notes, but going beyond such a statement, a mode is a "way of being," a harmonic idea that must be compared with one's own personality to seek affinities between oneself and the most suitable mode; it is not enough to know modal scales to enter into Modal Harmony. I realize that certain concepts in a consumerist society, focused on everything right now, struggle to be accepted, as has happened in this forum, perhaps because the mentality is lacking.

I did not say that I will abandon the forum; I am saying that I consider it useless to continue with the teaching of Modal Harmony. Perhaps meeting in person—in fact, I am certain—things would go differently.

A warm greeting.

modale wrote:

I realize that certain concepts in a consumerist society, everything all at once and immediately, struggle to be accepted, as has happened in this forum, perhaps because the mentality is lacking.

... no sorry, but what mentality? What happened? I've been working my tail off for 15 years, I'm doing my second two-year period ...sorry, but go tell that to someone else.

I don't think others have done any less than me, or rather, I don't assume a priori that they have done less and are crazed consumers just because there is someone who didn't pat you on the back for the piece you posted (how was it, was it okay as long as comments were coming in?) or for someone who hasn't fully grasped your aesthetic or just wants to understand how it works.

Maybe you don't know that this is the last month before the summer session and those who study also have other things to do, so simply a comment on your piece is not the top priority of the student population in May ... said very sympathetically.

Not by coincidence the seminars (see topics in the jazz section) are all in the summer

But excuse me guys, Modale's availability seemed wide to me... except for May, if someone were truly interested in the matter, don't you think they would mess around with the instrument a bit and then propose something? Of course, I know that 3 lessons are very few and in fact it's not nice that Modale quits so soon ... but maybe he was expecting some feedback. Even if homework was expected ... a little initiative ....

In short, the truth is always in the middle