A doubt is haunting me...

I think like you ... but a double time feel is used

Open content (youtube)

If it is used (I mean double time feel), why have doubts.

If everyone uses it, that's the sense of it, I don't think ambiguity is created.

DrJellyfish wrote:

When within a piece I want to maintain the same values but I double the beat, is the term "double meter" used?

Copland uses "twice as fast", if that can be useful to you.

Sometimes classical indications are the ones that work best, even though I know that perhaps in a Jazz context they might be a bit out of place

AbateFaria wrote:

Sometimes classical indications are the ones that work best, even if I know that perhaps in a Jazz context they might be a bit out of place

Well, I suggested Copland's expression precisely because it is on the limit between "classical" and not...

"twice as fast" I didn't know it, but isn't there also the risk of thinking of a double tempo there too?

Everything about this step is ambiguous, given that precision is claimed ... declare the beat explicitly?

... for example ... quarter=60 and then quarter=120

Clearer than this ...

Frank wrote:

In this step everything is ambiguous, given that precision is claimed ... explicitly declare the beat?

... for example ... quarter=60 and then quarter=120

this is one solution, but in this way the tempo doubles; instead, I mean like in the blues from the video above, where the rhythmic pattern changes but the duration of the chords remains the same.

DrJellyfish, surely I don't need to explain this to you, but you can use other combinations on the false line indicated by Frank.

In general though, I'm afraid I haven't understood what you are looking for... you are talking about duration in a temporal sense and not as a writing span, right?

Yes, a bit like in the video above: the tempo doubles but the harmony proceeds with the previous scanning, so the blues goes from 12 to 24 bars.

I'll see if I can find some examples. It can certainly be resolved; the doubt was about the terminology, furthermore depending on the piece one wonders whether it is better to continuously change the metronome or use these formulas.

In the classical field, these formulas are used extensively; if the same change of time occurs in an identical and methodical way, it can be placed only once and then indicated as "similar" or something else that implies there is a "programmed" alternation...

an example could be Miles Davis's 1965 version of Stella by Starlight (if I remember correctly from Miles in Europe): in the development of the piece, the tempo doubles twice and during the various episodes the harmonic structure sometimes follows the doubling of the beat, sometimes not; one solution would be to divide the piece into numerous sections, each with its own lead sheet and metronomic tempo (but it would result in a lead sheet of many pages...), the other would be to always maintain the same metronome and use fairly complex indications (like double time but the same harmonic rhythm as the previous section, half time but with chords that last half as long as the previous section etc.). One should listen to it and try to make a schema; now I will see if I have one that I wrote when I was young.

DrJellyfish wrote:

an example could be Miles Davis's 1965 version of Stella by Starlight (if I remember correctly from Miles in Europe)

I sent you the score of Stravinsky's VARIATIONS «In Memoriam Aldous Huxley», which is the last composition for large orchestra by S. himself; it was written between July 1963 and October 1964 and was performed for the first time on April 17, 1965, by the Chicago Symphony Orchestra conducted by Robert Craft.

So you can make a comparison with the classical world and you will see that the good "old" Igor can be useful even to a jazz musician like you ... also regarding rhythm and meter

Correction: from Live at the Plugged Nickel. Old age is a rogue...

@ Frank: thank you for the score, you always provide excellent insights; :-)

The fact is that Igor's music is written out in full; if I did the same for the piece mentioned above, these problems would not exist.

The thing is that Stella by Starlight would fit entirely on one page, the trouble is how to quickly and unequivocally explain the relationship between the rhythm and the harmonic structure.

Now I will try to make a schema of the piece. thnx

…and propose how the rhythmic pattern of the accompaniment is found on many pop music scores? Indicating for a couple of measures what value the chord should have?

True, often on guitar sheet music, the type of rhythm the accompaniment should have is reported in small print.

always maintaining the initial metronome, it goes like this (...):

tpt theme [chorus 1], tempo rubato – from measure 9 on tempo (cca 60); the tempo gradually shifts towards a double time feel (measure 25, bass on 2): the bass and drums double the

pattern (swing 16ths); from measure 31 the bass goes to 4.

tpt solo [chorus 2]: continues the double time feel; from measure 30 the rhythmic pattern doubles further (swing 32nds, bass on 2).

tpt solo [chorus 3]: The bass goes to 4, the previous rhythmic pattern is maintained but compared to the initial theme, the harmonic structure results in being compressed into 16 measures.

sax solo [chorus 4]: the rhythm maintains the previous pattern.

sax solo [chorus 5]: the rhythm maintains the previous pattern; from measure 25 the rhythm halves the tempo (swing 16ths).

sax solo [chorus 6]: the rhythm maintains the previous pattern.

piano solo [chorus 7]: the rhythm maintains the previous pattern.

piano solo [chorus 8]: the rhythm maintains the previous pattern; from measure 25 reprise of the theme.

tpt theme [chorus 9]: the rhythm maintains the previous pattern (the theme results in 16 measures). Cadenza and finale.

How would you write it in a score? ;-)

For goodness' sake, it is feasible but, for example, having already used the double time feel indication at measure 25 of the 1st chorus, what would an additional double time feel at measure 30 of the 2nd chorus make us think? Do we double again or proceed in double time feel? And at chorus 3, how do we indicate that the chords last half as long?