Arpeggios

Hello Demetrio,

regarding arpeggios, the discussion related to fingering is quite reductive in my opinion, also because it varies from key to key and from hand to hand (I don't think you would use that fingering for A-flat major!). I believe that the most important thing for performing arpeggios is to approach them with naturalness in the movements, which can present different fingering from person to person, shoulder relaxation, wrist elasticity, and with the correct accentuations (triplets or quadruplets, or quintuplets or sextuplets, etc., depending on how they are written). Thus, once again, execution is linked to what the music suggests and not to technical exercise for its own sake. I would nonetheless clarify that one cannot play without having assimilated the necessary technique (at a cerebral level rather than a hand level); with this, we do not mean that technique is not useful, but it must not become a tool that must be used for hours every time you sit down at the piano. Arpeggios are therefore a very important technical subject that must be known and which is often used in classical compositions (See the last page of Mendelssohn's Prelude in B minor, just to cite an example of extreme use of arpeggios). Everything in execution always happens first in the head. The head must be 2 beats or more ahead of the execution; only in this way can we visualize in advance what we are going to play a few moments later. This mental technique will help us in the search for a "more correct" sound, in finding notes during jumps across different regions of the keyboard, in the realization of arpeggios, and in the entire performance of the piece. The discussion therefore focuses more on a type of mental realization; the hands must only perform what has already been decided and realized in your head. The true technique is therefore a different approach to the spurious meaning of piano technique. True technique is the cerebral learning of movements and the ability to mentally anticipate the actions that the hand must perform. Arpeggio exercises are welcome, provided they are not aimed at simple hand "gymnastics" but are instead aimed at mental predisposition in anticipating hand movements in particular situations.

Hello everyone. I would also like to say a few words about this matter which indeed...... For example, I study using the technique of falls and flexions on the keys, and this technique has given me excellent results. I completely agree with Simone regarding what he advises you, since the mental work is practically everything. Technique is a small part of piano study, but in the end, it becomes everything, even if saying it like that doesn't sound nice. A building can have the most bizarre shapes, but every extravagance must first be thought out, and in the end, the walls must stand, right? Relaxation and loosening the muscles is very important when studying on the keyboard, but in arpeggios, there is also a need for a hand that knows how to contract and expand quickly, along with parallelism to the keys that the palm must maintain.... extreme cases aside.

As Simone says, rhythm is also important, and setting rhythmic appointments is very useful for tackling any repertoire. One thing that has always helped me is thinking about the palm moving from bass to treble, but without too much up-and-down like on a roller coaster, remaining stable and parallel to the keys. The thumb is truly important, and I remember working on it with its tip to help me, since keeping it too pressed down made things quite messy. I just know that there is a lot to study regarding arpeggios..... but studying always brings great joy, doesn't it?. Bye, and I hope I have said sensible things.

P.S. Don't forget that when studying arpeggios, the piano must be well-tuned; otherwise, it becomes easier to muddy the notes. I experienced this firsthand, even if I could hardly believe it.

Beautiful discussion. Great topic.

Scales. Arpeggios.

Similar problems

In scales, as in arpeggios, one starts slowly and passes the thumb underneath. But one should not delay playing scales at speed with the thumb on top. It is one of the classic examples that helps us understand how, beyond "the speed wall," movements become quite different. The same goes for arpeggios. If one insists, in my opinion, on speeding up with the thumb underneath, the arpeggio becomes extremely difficult. In fact, it would be better to think of a 123 position and another position (after the passage) 1235. That is, moving the thumb (thumb on top). In Schubert's Wanderer, the finale is in C major arpeggios. In all positions... with parallel hands. I remember studying and performing them by turning after the 5th finger so that both hands make an equal simultaneous gesture. Technically more difficult... but mentally easier, and less prone to error. (Advanced technique, but it's worth a try)

Another example. Try the finale of the Presto Agitato from Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. It is better to start with parallel hands up to the 5th and go back, thinking of all positions as arpeggiated chords. Try it, naturally using the pedal..... all the arpeggios are in C#!!!!! Perhaps it is harder at first... but NEVER turn with the thumb!!!!!! Madness? Try it.......

Thank you all. For Simon. Evidently I did not explain myself well. The fingering I wrote was only an example; it is clear that the fingering depends on the type of arpeggio being performed. I agree with the mental aspect (this does not apply only to arpeggios but to all piano technique, which is essentially a mental matter). Maestro Ferrarelli's observations are interesting. It seems to me that instead of rotating the thumb underneath, arpeggios can be performed with very rapid lateral movements of the hand so that the thumb never rotates (Chang's thesis?). However, I still hold the view that one needs to see, so am I asking too much if you post a video tutorial on the subject?

Another thesis is Sandor's, who suggests "drawing" the infinity sign with the elbow while performing arpeggios (in my opinion, a very valid solution) together with starting with a low wrist on the first note and ending with a high wrist on the last (to achieve the legato effect).

@Demetrio

I wouldn't want to be mistaken, but it seems to me that the thesis "instead of rotating the thumb underneath, arpeggios can be performed with very rapid lateral hand movements so that the thumb never rotates" was first expressed by Gyorgy Sandor, who links it to human physiology and the fact that bringing the thumb under the carpus reduces its own mobility, both lateral and vertical, to almost zero, as well as inducing a state of discomfort.

The theories heard have been, in summary, three, and I will describe them briefly:

1. one proceeds by positions; the fingers, from the thumb forward, move (I am ascending) and, when I am about to use the last usable finger, I suddenly move the thumb underneath, touch, shift the position, and start again.

2. the position is modified: while the fingers following the thumb move, I also move the thumb; at the change (always underneath), the thumb is already near the point to be touched and I start again;

3. one proceeds by positions; like 1, but with the thumb on top;

4. like 2, with the thumb on top.

1 and 3 have the advantage that the position changes occasionally, but abruptly, not continuously; such things work well on "short" scales and arpeggios, where the "position" diction makes sense and they have a physical wall depending on the irregular alternation of short movements (fingers) and long movements (wrist).

2 and 4 involve the commitment of continuous hand movement, but they do not have the physical wall of the abrupt change movement because the thumb's motion shortens the length of the change.

Regarding the thumb, it is clear that having the thumb underneath leads, at first, to an apparent benefit because the hand does not lift; regarding the other teacher's suggestion, the wrist movement, instead of occasional horizontal jerks, occurs through progressive shifts, but it is also clear that when the thumb goes toward the palm, it approaches an unnatural position. Furthermore, as soon as the thumb touches, the theory of progressive movement applied so far goes to hell, because now I must immediately move my wrist and hand to the right to reset the position! All this immediately after passing through an unnatural position!

Keep in mind that, at the level at which I play, I still lack a lot to play thumb-on-top with the fluidity that PIANOEXPERT and THESIMON do, but there is no doubt that since I started following Paolaccio's advice:

1. my anxiety has passed

2. my pain has passed

3. speed has increased

4. most importantly: I have the (verified) feeling that I can increase speed as I wish, whereas before every increment was an anguish

5. it connects, yes sir, it connects, even if with a trick.

Ciao and I hope I have been useful to you.

I would like to understand the thumb-over technique instead. Since I am not familiar with it. Can you give me some clarifications on this aspect? Thanks in advance.

But... it's a figure of speech.... it's not that the thumb passes over! I mean, a figure of speech ...to say that it doesn't pass under. Do you like the pun?

It's a matter of understanding... mentally and... kinetically.

Very simply: instead of thinking about passing under the thumb, which slows down the entire movement and readiness in execution speed (in fact, the hand must rotate slightly... then the thumb passes under... then the rest of the hand reaches the new position!!!!!). The hand and the brain conceive two positions placed close to each other. One is before the passage and the other is after the passage. The hand does nothing but move rapidly, in a single operation, from position 1 to position 2. E.g. C Major arpeggio. Two octaves. First position: do-mi-sol. Second position: do-mi-sol-do

Thanks Paolo! Yes, yes, perfect, since I also learned to understand them that way but... the thing about the thumb on top made me doubt whether I was in the dark about some aspect. Thanks again.

P.S. Maybe some kind of acrobatics like Liszt? Ha! HA!

Ehehe well, Liszt was born and became famous as a pianist. He performed concerts everywhere and only later was he appreciated as a composer. He is remembered as the pianist with giant hands who played from C3 to G4 !!!

Monsters from other times............

Dear Demetrio,

I find this topic very interesting! I am relatively new to this site, which explains why I am only now posting a reply to this beautiful discussion of yours. Arpeggios on the piano are indeed a problem for many pianists. However, I know people for whom they come extremely naturally, more naturally than simple scales. I therefore had the opportunity to ask them what visual-mental attitude allowed them to have such ease in performing this difficult technical aspect. In fact, the answer I received from all of them was: "I imagine arpeggios as if they were arpeggiated chords, to be performed in a rhythmically regular manner rather than 'snatched' as they are usually done".

The resulting technique is that of parallel hand displacement, which therefore finds itself in the same position at each successive octave.

Personally, I would introduce an important distinction, which Maestro Paolo has already rightly highlighted:

IT DEPENDS ON THE REQUIRED SPEED. That is: the technique performed, and consequently the movement of the wrist and thumb, must be adequate to the metronomic and expressive context of the passage in question.

Let me explain better: if you are playing a slow, harmonic, expressive passage (for example, the small 2-octave arpeggio found in the second movement of Beethoven's Pathétique, to use it as an example), then the search for a refined sound, legato, and so on "imposes" you to perform the arpeggio using the thumb underhand pass, since this is the only way to bind the sound (obviously excluding legato sound through the resonance pedal, which however is understood in some way to be different). In this case, the study to be done is that of placing all the weight of the hand, arm, and shoulder on each finger, transferring it slowly and continuously from one finger to another.

If instead you are playing a virtuoso passage (examples abound here...), where a fast arpeggio appears, it is necessary instead (or at least highly recommended, in order not to block the wrist) to play through the technique of "rigid translation" of the wrist from one octave to the next (and if perhaps a certain sonic legato is required, then in this case the resonance pedal is perfectly fine, since you are at speed!). In this case, the phases for learning the passage are four: mentally visualize the type of arpeggiated chord (C# major, for example) and have all the present alterations in mind beforehand; perform the arpeggio by chords (that is, if the arpeggio lasts four octaves and is in C# major, play the C# major chord placing the weight well and rigidly translate the position of the hand - attention, the hand position must be solid, the wrist must not be rigid, and least of all the arm! - to the same chord one octave above, trying to ideally bind - that is, more mentally than practically - this passage with the last finger of the chord - i.e., the 4th or 5th finger. The result will be letting go of this finger last, so to speak.) The reason for this phase is that the hand, during the chord, is perfectly balanced on the keyboard, and therefore the brain learns and memorizes the position on the note to be played in arpeggio, which gives the hand and wrist a sensation of greater well-being. Once this sensation is well memorized, one must move to the third phase, which consists of performing the arpeggio, slowly, through rigid translation of the hand, with the attention to exploit the previous phase to seek the condition of well-being and wrist fluidity found.

Finally, bring up the speed of the passage, taking care to repeat it numerous times, with various stops etc. (here we enter the thorny field of how a pianist "settles" difficult passages into the hand, and therefore I am not interested in that at this moment).

Well, I think I have said enough about it and have been exhaustive!

Ciao!

Dear Braket, I fully agree. I would argue that it is appropriate to teach from the very beginning the idea of elbow and arm translation in both scales and arpeggios (which can be understood as an "amplification of scale distances" as opposed to a broken chord). That is, to make them understand that the thumb UNDER THE OTHER FINGERS CANNOT PLAY FREELY! (We are instead always used to calling it: "the thumb pass")

It must be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, but you have performed a very careful analysis. I would say that one can also show in slow tempo how the thumb plays "on top," finally rising without impediments.

Another concept: they show us "pedaling" as the tempting devil, from whom one must flee to achieve a "sincere legato." I do not believe it is so, except in a few particular cases. Using the pedal well allows us to leave the hand in absolute tranquility and favors the natural translations of the arm and elbow, and more. An exaggerated "finger legato" can, at times, even alter the naturalness of positions, equality, and the correct involvement of the muscles of the arm and shoulder.

Let us not, then, take everything as "gospel." Many examples should be examined.

Great Paolo! I respect this thing of yours about legato at the cost of the fork. It's very true! It's fine to slur and I agree that nothing is more beautiful than a sincere legato but..... sometimes difficult conditions are created where putting the hand in a difficult and tense situation alters the tranquility and relaxation to such an extent that the passage of two notes in a single bar goes on to alter the three preceding and the three following ones....it's just a way of saying it, but sometimes it really is like that.

I wouldn't want to venture too far with words. But have you ever thought about the "mental" legato? I mean: If we have that passage or that phrase "legato in mind," that is, if we possess it mentally, nothing and no one can prevent us from realizing it. In fact, the pedal can help more (everyone will now cry "scandal"!!!!). The pedal is excessive and not helpful when we do not have a clear idea in mind. When it becomes helpful, it frees the hand and must not be accused of "betraying" the fingers' capability. When our Masters insisted by saying and repeating: "....sing it...." they meant exactly this!!!!! That is, "internalize" the phrase as if you had to sing it... then... we will find, at all costs, the way to "sing it" on the instrument (Piano, violin, flute or other!)

First think and internalize and then......execute. Absolutely, Paolo. I also sing sometimes when I play....and if you have the singing of the phrase well in mind, then yes, everything is different. Thanks for the advice.

Dear Paolo,

I fully agree! Moreover, this thesis is also logically sustainable from a physical point of view: "legato" concerns a mix of timbre and sound intensity, which, as a thing in itself, has nothing to do with the actual mode of performance, which lies in the choice or preference of the pianist. The piano is indeed a percussion instrument for which, to be precise, it is an instrument that does not have a true capacity or aptitude in itself for "singing," since its mechanics consist of a series of impulses discretized in time and in the frequency field (on a string instrument one can perform true glissandi, with all their nuances, whereas on the piano there is no escaping the semitone!)

For this reason, I would dare say that "cantabile legato" is ALWAYS a mental matter, which can then, in a second instance, be put into practice by the performer through various technical means. The common pairing of the concepts of "cantabile legato" and "finger legato" is understandable in light of the fact that, since the strength of our fingers is almost equivalent (if evaluated compared to the force exerted by the intervention of the wrist or even the entire arm) or at least easily controllable; this implies that it is "simpler" and more immediate, WHEN POSSIBLE, to give a coherent and unitary continuity to a musical phrase by exploiting the movement of the hand through digital legato.

However, this absolutely does not mean that this is the ONLY way to render "cantabile legato"! The first example that comes to mind is Mendelssohn's wonderful Prelude no. 1, in which the singing is to be rendered solely with the thumb (due to technical impossibility of doing otherwise!).

In this case, if the pianist does not conceive the "singing" in their head, they will never be able to form a sensible melodic line, and the piece will consist of a series of disconnected impulses. Always using this piece as an example, it can also be said that, when the singing consists of long notes that require logical continuity, the use of the pedal becomes indispensable to express this legato, otherwise the intensity of the preceding note fades rapidly and forces two choices: 1) an impulse that, despite being in correct sonic prominence, breaks the logical continuity of the phrase; 2) execution of the following note at an intensity comparable to the previous one, which has now been reduced to a feeble sound (and therefore is not perceptible or distinguishable as "singing").

Finally, I want to add that "singing" always requires sonic "roundness," which is obtained by playing relaxed (so that the hammer strikes the string elastically) and, often, the judicious use of the pedal (attention to the judiciousness of the pedal must nonetheless be very high!) is a necessary and sufficient condition for a relaxed hand and, consequently, for a good "cantabile".

Warm regards to all!

Giacomo

Absolutely right, everything, Giacomo!!!!!

I agree with Giacomo too. Interesting observations. Thank you.