Bach, Brandenburg Concerto No. 1

Simply the small violin is a transposing instrument, a third above the violin

Thanks Natan, but what is the point of Dover publishing the complete Brandenburg Concertos with the piccolo violin part offset? It must be a philological choice... but how many people in the world play the piccolo violin?

Aspirante wrote:

Thank you Natan, but what is the point of Dover publishing the complete Brandenburg Concertos with the piccolo violin part transposed? It might be a philological choice... but how many people in the world play the piccolo violin?

What does that have to do with it? if the piccolo violin is written a minor third lower, it should be written that way...

The reason for your observation is not clear to me...

Aspirante wrote:

Thanks Natan, but what is the point of Dover publishing the complete Brandenburg Concertos with the piccolo violin part transposed? It might be a philological choice... but how many people in the world play the piccolo violin?

Quite simply, Dover is reprinting the old Bach Gesellschaft edition... if it is written this way, it is because these were and are Bach's wishes.

He imagined the piccolo violin as a transposer so as not to force the violinist to learn an ad hoc fingering.

BackSpace wrote:

Banalmente la Dover ristampa la vecchia edizione della Bach Gesellschaft... se è scritto così è perché queste erano e sono le volontà di Bach.

Immaginava il violino piccolo come traspositore per non costringere il violinista ad imparare una diteggiatura ad hoc.

Ma non è vero! Bach non immaginava un bel nulla! Il violino piccolo è accordato una terza minore sopra rispetto al violino normale, quindi deve essere scritto una terza sotto perché il suono risultante sia quello desiderato. Se Bach avesse scritto quella parte in fa maggiore sarebbe risultata in la bemolle maggiore, altroché...

Ok, but if the small French violin is tuned Bb-F-C-G, it results as more convenient for a violinist to read D (open string) A (open string) F# (first finger, first position) than F-C-A in the chord at measure 25 of the third allegro beat.

Sorry BackSpace, but Bach didn't invent transposing instruments... it's a fact, there is nothing to question or interpret (I am saying this also for Aspirante). It is simply a notion that must be known.

BackSpace wrote:

Ok, but if the small French violin is tuned Bb-F-C-G, it is more convenient for a violinist to read D (open string) A (open string) F# (first finger, first position) than F-C-A in the chord at measure 25 of the third allegro beat.

Perhaps it is not quite clear to you what transposing instruments are.

On that violin, if you read F-C-A, you play Ab-Eb-C; it is not a matter of convenience.

The convenience lies only in the fact that with the baroque violin one can play high notes without going very high with the positions. That's all.

I understand guys, being ignorant on the matter, I thought it was a perversion... excuse my naivety and thank you.

...so I am pretending that the small violin is tuned like a normal violin,

Is there a rule that establishes, among other things, which instruments are called transposing instruments, or can one also choose to write normally, indicating the key of the instrument?

GnazzJazz wrote:

...so I am pretending that the small violin is tuned like a normal violin

I didn't understand what you mean... The small violin is tuned differently; you cannot "pretend" that it is tuned like a normal one.

GnazzJazz wrote:

Is it a rule that establishes, among other things, which instruments are called transposing instruments, or can one also choose to write normally, indicating the key of the instrument?

You cannot "establish" which are the transposing instruments (they are not "called" transposing: they just are...).

There are instruments that are said to be "cut" in a different key, for example the clarinet, for example the horn, for example the trumpet.

In modern scores, the instrument is often written "in C," but the player's part is written transposed, otherwise they would be forced to transpose. If you write with a normal music notation program, this operation is very simple, but it remains a fact: transposing instruments must be known and one must know how to write them (accidentals first and foremost), because they are part of the basic language of a musician (and, all the more so, of a composer).

Carlos wrote:

You cannot "establish" which instruments are transposing (they are not "called" transposing: they just are...).

There are instruments that are said to be "cut" in a different key, for example the clarinet, for example the horn, for example the trumpet.

In modern scores, the instrument is often written "in C," but the player's part is written transposed; otherwise, they would be forced to transpose. If you write with a normal music notation program, this operation is very simple, but it remains a fact: transposing instruments must be known and one must know how to write for them (accidentals first and foremost), because they are part of the basic language of a musician (and, all the more so, of a composer).

I was thinking of saying what you explain from a different point of view, but it might be that I haven't understood: if the saxophonist with a Bb saxophone reads and plays the written C below the staff in treble clef of an appropriately transposed score, will the frequency of the fundamental that I hear be that of the Bb on the piano below middle C, i.e., about 228 Hz, if I am not mistaken? (to clear up any doubts)

As a more or less informed layperson non-musician, I would say that they are playing, as required, the saxophone just as I would play a soprano flute in C, and therefore to my eyes it is "as if" the saxophonist were pretending to play an instrument in C (naturally they know it isn't and they know the score is transposed). All of this seems to me a practice justified by convenience.

On the other hand, being a transposing instrument does not seem to me to be a physical property, but a cultural property; perhaps that is why there are misunderstandings.

... I knew that if you play C, it comes out as Bb, without anything being done.

Therefore, those who write scores, knowing this peculiarity, if they want to hear Bb... must write C and, thinking at a higher level, will write in C major if the intention is to hear Bb major.

Therefore, if the piece is for Bb trumpet and piano, then the piano part will be written in Bb+ and the trumpet part in C+

GnazzJazz wrote:

On the other hand, making the instrument a transposing one does not seem to me to be a physical property, but rather a cultural property; perhaps that is why there are misunderstandings.

Oh yeah? Well, try taking a couple of trumpets (one in D, one in E, for example), a couple of horns (one in F and one in Eb), an A clarinet, and a tenor sax (in Bb) and make them play a C major scale (written) simultaneously. Then see if it is a "cultural fact"...

PS jokes aside, I realize that the topic of "transposing instruments" is a bit complicated for those who do not have a clear idea of what it is about, and it is also quite complicated to explain on the forum. However, it is not even correct to resolve everything by explaining it as if they were "pretending to," because it isn't quite like that either...

A beautiful listen

Bach - Brandenburg Concertos No.1 - i: Allegro Moderato

Thanks for the report

Open content (youtube)

Carlos wrote:

Oh yeah? Well, try taking a couple of trumpets (one in D, one in E, for example), a couple of horns (one in F and one in Eb), a clarinet in A, and a tenor sax (in Bb) and make them play a C major scale (written) simultaneously. Then see if it's a "cultural fact"...

PS jokes aside, I realize that the topic of "transposing instruments" is a bit complicated for those who don't have a clear idea of what it is, and it is also quite complicated to explain on the forum. However, it isn't even correct to resolve everything by explaining it "as if they were pretending to," because it's not quite like that either...

it's not fair, you came in with a tank!

anyway, I apologize, I have resorted to trivializing (not to say how they say in Rome... )

(just a note: by "cultural fact" I don't mean "a quirk," but something much more important)

to make it up to you, I also propose a listen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_GxW7v4QcE

Open content (youtube)