Beethovenians, is it a scherzo?

damn, and how does he do the adagio??

suonolatromba wrote:

gosh, and how does he do the adagio??

bah.. not even as one might imagine.

Go to minute 27' 33" : it takes him 23' 14"

anyway ... a Ninth of Mahlerian proportions

Open content (youtube)

It's not "a" joke .... it is THE joke of the Ninth Symphony!!

puahahahahahahahha Cobra.....his symphony lasts almost 2 hours.... an absurd thing

Celibidache gives him a simple...

antares86 wrote:

puahahahahahahahha Cobra.....

. . . it can truly be defined as an
'execution of the . . . Cobra'

LucaCavaliere wrote:

. . . one can truly define it as an
'execution of the . . . Cobra'

what a cobra!!!!!! so loooooong

in the comments there is also those who say that finally someone performs Beethoven as they should, let alone

Money thrown away, I seriously wonder when they will start performing music by the living.... I say enough! Just to differentiate themselves, they do unthinkable things. We don't need yet another version of Beethoven's Ninth; there are plenty of beautiful and interesting works locked in drawers waiting to be performed; excuse me, but it seems like a gratuitous insult. Re-listen to the versions of the Ninth that already exist, perhaps pairing them with the listening of unpublished works... assuming and not denying that we have artistic directors who say no to certain disgraces and learn to choose what is being done anew

Natan wrote:

Money thrown away, I seriously wonder when they will start performing music by the living.... I say enough! Just to differentiate themselves, they do things that are unacceptable. We don't need yet another version of Beethoven's Ninth; there are plenty of beautiful and interesting works locked in drawers waiting to be performed; excuse me, but it seems like a gratuitous insult. Re-listen to the versions of the Ninth that already exist, perhaps pairing them with the listening of unpublished works... granted and not conceded that we have artistic directors who say no to certain disgraces and learn to choose what is being done anew

Forgive me, but this is a truly .... argument.

If you want to advocate for the cause—a very just one, by the way—of more performances of new music, this is not the right path and, believe me, you are only doing harm to your cause.

A week ago I attended yet another Ninth at the Teatro Comunale di Bologna, completely sold out theater, people shouting like they were in a stadium. Emotions through the roof.

I still want many more Ninthes like that!

And one cannot ask to stop performing the Ninth in order to perform other music. People want the Ninth and it is right to give it to them.

Then we can discuss how to educate and make people listen, a large part of those people, to other music as well... while continuing, however, to also listen to the music of the past. In reality, the two things are not at all in conflict but, on the contrary, must be combined and encouraged.

No Daniele, people want the Ninth and that's it. Not the umpteenth version of the Ninth.

I doubt he would recognize the differences between Karajan and Muti. Therefore, when there is little money, it's better not to waste it. It is not the audience that needs to be educated, but the artistic directors... who have now become atrophied. Better to play the usual Mozarts, so you can't go wrong.

So first of all, let's clarify who the people are.

The people who frequent a musical theater are, for the most part, composed of people who have always listened to classical music and therefore know how to distinguish a Karajan performance from that of Muti and know how to choose—each based on their own subjective evaluations—who they like more and who they like less.

The other minimal part is composed of the "occasional" listeners—let's call them that—who are attracted by the event perhaps because it is the Ninth or Don Giovanni or, in any case, music or operas that have a greater appeal than usual.

What is true is that a large part of classical music listeners poorly digest "new" music. But this, I repeat, is another matter that has been discussed and will continue to be discussed, but it would be madness to think of solving it by eliminating the old repertoire to propose the new.

That said, and coming to the specifics of this performance of the Ninth. I have great difficulty thinking that any conductor conducting any orchestra and who, therefore, has a certain level of listening culture, could impose such slow tempos.

If we were in the era of vinyl records, I would say it's a 33 rpm record that has been set to 16. I don't know if some good techie might have done something like this by uploading it to YouTube, but the suspicion is strong. Then, whoever knows more than me about these things, please weigh in.

In the history of performances, we have seen faster and slower interpretations, and there is nothing new or exceptional about that. Now, without wanting to bring up the very fast metronomic tempos dictated by Beethoven himself—which only Chailly has perfectly respected as far as I know—a performance of this type—if real and not artificial—is absolutely ridiculous and would certainly not benefit this conductor.

As for the choices of artistic directors, it is always necessary to remember that a theater should aim to break even as much as possible and, above all, this is essential. And, as they say in Bologna, talk is cheap [literally: chatter is chatter and tagliatelle are eaten].

In Bologna, for instance, this year the new opera by Sciarrino will be presented... and other absolutely unprecedented works as well.

So... let's stop worrying about trivialities with clichés and let's start seeing the good that there is, despite everything.

There is no need to invent much, history shows us that in every era the music of the living was played. Well yes, Mozart but also Salieri. Then we leave it to time to prove its points

Then we discover that those who are most renowned will end up forgotten

History shows us that until the beginning of the 1800s, contemporary music was performed. Then, for historical and cultural reasons, music from the past began to be placed alongside contemporary music, bit by bit. In the twentieth century, the listening to music from the past surpassed that of contemporary music.

This is what history tells us, very summarily.

The illustrious figures of the past who have been forgotten largely deserve it, but perhaps for some it would be appropriate to review, at least, things a little bit.

But this will also be true for current composers: only those who deserve it will not be forgotten, and this, regardless of the intensity of current listening.

With thirty years of subscription to the Santa Cecilia concerts, I can only add what I have seen:

First half Mozart - Second half Beethoven = completely sold out hall

First half a contemporary composer - Second half Beethoven = half-empty hall (someone enters directly for the second half)

... well, Pausini always sells out

Terenzio wrote:

> First movement a contemporary - Second movement Beethoven = half-empty hall (someone enters directly at the second movement)

This can be read in many ways. Ideas? (Consequences?)

Frank wrote:

This can be read in many ways. Ideas? (Consequences?)

I could answer you in a Pratolinian way: Constancy of reason!

In other words: reason does not always—or necessarily always—lie in what people want or desire. And this, let it be very clear, is valid for all subjects of our lives, starting with politics.

I think that one has a duty, at least to try, to accustom the classical audience to new art music, and this can only be achieved by pairing the established repertoire with more recent music.

My experience as a simple listener tells me that constancy rewards, indeed, reason. And therefore, one must not give up on this path.

ps: I would like to remind you Tiger, that here we are talking about people who listen to a certain type of music, at least predominantly if not exclusively, which is the music that we usually and improperly define as classical.

Now, we all know, not just Pausini but substantially all pop singers have a much larger following than any composer or composition from the classical repertoire. Substantially, one is reinventing the wheel. But, I repeat, here we are talking about people—that is, a minority—who prefer classical to other music

Exactly Daniele, there is those who like light music, those who like ancient music and today we can say, those who like modern music.

Now what should the artistic director of a theater propose? Obviously the music that fills the house. Thanks Terenzio. Therefore modern music is outside of the theater