Beethoven's School

He was a student of Czerny, we can certainly say that he has many affinities with Beethoven regarding the fugue … they don't even come to pay him

BackSpace wrote:

One student was Czerny, we can say that he certainly has many affinities with Beethoven regarding the fugue … they wouldn't even pay him to write them

Great stuff... In these two lines you are saying that 1) Beethoven couldn't write fugues even if they paid him (which is absolutely not true), 2) Czerny deserves to be remembered only for the fact that, like Beethoven, he couldn't write fugues even if they paid him. Poor and completely unfounded.

Haydn's words about Beethoven. These, yes, are two lines worth reading.

«You have much talent and you will acquire even more, enormously more. You have an inexhaustible abundance of inspiration, you have thoughts that no one has ever had, you will never sacrifice your thought to a tyrannical norm, but you will sacrifice the norms to your imaginations: you have given me the impression of being a man with many heads, many hearts, many souls.»

In the 110, just to give an example, there is fuga and fuga rovesciata. One more beautiful than the other...

TheSimon wrote:

In the 110, just to give an
example, there is fugue and retrograde fugue. One more beautiful than the
other...

Exactly... and the Diabelli fugues? and those of the Variations on
Eroica? And The Grand Fugue?!!

Hello everyone and many thanks to Simone who opened this section, debuting already with an excellent observation, punctual and absolutely correct!

Regarding B.'s way of proceeding in the Fugue, there are two books dedicated precisely to this subject that debunk the clichés that, unfortunately, keep resurfacing: the first is the excellent Beethoven's Fugues by Donald Francis Tovey, Oxford University Press, from 1944. A complete analysis of the development of the fugal idea in B. The other, very recent, is by Dr. Julia Ronge, with whom we had a pleasant exchange of opinions just last summer at the BH. The book is titled Beethovens Lehrzeit: Kompositionsstudien bei Joseph Haydn, Johann Georg Albrechtsberger und Antonio Salieri. Julia carefully observes the studies made by our [composer], especially with Albrechtsberger, who, speaking of fugues, was certainly no fool. The final observation concerns the fact that any of us can write correct fugues, but here the form bends to intention, but without being incorrect. When it comes simply to writing and choosing between formal correctness and expression, B. always chooses the latter. To reply to the post inserted just as I am writing, here is a small list from memory of the fugues in the catalogue: Opus 35 15 variations and Fugue for Piano in E-flat major on a theme taken from "The Creatures of Prometheus," Opus 43. Opus 133 Great Fugue, in B-flat major, for 2 Violins, viola and Cello; Opus 134 Great Fugue, in B-flat major, for Piano 4 hands (transcription from opus 133); Opus 137 Fugue for 2 Violins, 2 violas and Cello, in D major. Then the fugues included in the most important compositions, from No. 110 to Opus 106! Guys! The fugue of the Hammerklavier! And then those two fugues from the Diabelli? And the one in the Missa Solemnis? Finally, for heaven's sake, here are some fugues that are not "Tantot libre tantot recherchée": Hess 64, WoO 31, Hess 29, 30, 31.... and lastly, in the coming days I will upload the original edition of Seyfried's book "Beethoven Studien" to the site, so that one can realize that B. wrote scholastic fugues in bunches like flowers (I believe about 450 exercises have survived, both published and unpublished).

Big kisses to everyone!

Given that I am quoting all interventions except for Backspace's, at most Czerny didn't understand a damn thing about Beethoven's lesson (on the fugue)

Besides, we still struggle to truly understand the great fugue even today; I consider it one of the most avant-garde pieces in history, and even today not all the knots have been untied... let alone where a man of his time could have gone...

The discussion about fugues is interesting; I knew about Czerny, but was he the only pupil?

If one intends by "Student" a person who assiduously follows lessons from a master or a "pedant," Beethoven had only one student, namely Archduke Rudolph of Austria, to whom he did not even spare a few taps on the hands. Even in this case, here is Beethoven's family saga repeating itself: no family, no student who could learn his technique. Rudolph was musically decent (I believe there are some recordings of his chamber music, released by Bayer Records), but nothing sublime (but economically fundamental!). It goes without saying that B. dedicated many works to him, from the famous Trio Opus 97 etc... Interesting is the theme "O Hoffnung" WoO 200, on which the Archduke wrote a multitude of variations of modest interest. (equally modest are the variations he wrote for the "Diabelli Variations" album). In short, perhaps one could say that Beethoven carefully chose his student: wealthy, powerful, faithful, mediocre....

Thank you Armando

OrlandiArmando wrote:

In short, perhaps one could say that Beethoven chose his pupil carefully: wealthy, powerful, faithful, mediocre....

With "mediocre" though, you are being a little "mean" .... , I don't think Beethoven feared "rivals", even good Schubert was overshadowed by him ... and we are talking about another little genius

GREAT FRANK!!!

No no, Beethoven was well aware of his primary role in the culture of the time. The point is that he detested students (detestava gli allievi - Allevi.... beautiful assonance... I'll have to reflect on this....) but he loved "palanche" [easy money/perks] very much, so he chose, not consciously or intentionally (the second one I said, as Quelo used to say) the character that would commit him the least, pay a lot, and be the key to entering high society well. Who better than Rodolfo? But who would have tolerated at the time having a mass for his election as Archbishop two years after the ceremony? (Even a die-hard Beethovenian like me would have been incensed!!) As for R.'s mediocrity, in fact, it is a purely musical mediocrity. Rodorf was - on the contrary - a man of excellent virtues and was very loved in Olomouc. Imagine that they opposed - unsuccessfully - the translation of his body into the Capuchin Crypt in Vienna. Analyzing some of his works, perhaps two trios for clarinet stand out (but they stand out like highway overpasses). Precisely, Rodolfo had theory lessons, but B. was unable (or had no intention) to give anything of his musical self. Finally, I think that among all of us we have forgotten the formidable fugue of the cello sonata Opus 102 that so amazed Schindler!

Friendship----------------------------------------

So Armando, how does the good Czerny fit into the realistic painting of Beethoven you are doing (in this context)...?

Well, everyone knows that Czerny took lessons from B. between May 1801 and mid-1803. Anecdotal evidence tells us of a Beethoven who, admiring Czerny's technique, wanted him as a pupil. Well, I am always suspicious of nineteenth-century reports, which have ruined—for example—the memory of the relationship between Haydn and B., which was on the contrary always very cordial. Undoubtedly Beethoven trusted Czerny highly, so much so that he entrusted him with the thankless role of the soloist part in the premiere of his fifth piano concerto—a non-negligible honor-burden!—in February (or thereabouts) of 1812. Furthermore, he transcribed B.'s symphonies for pf, but he also made transcriptions of other works: septets, quartets, etc..... In the notebooks, the relationship between the two is always very frank and cordial, but as a drinking companion, B. always preferred Holz. (Czerny must have been truly heavy... since as B. he always remained a "gentleman") I have a fine book titled "Beyond the Art of Finger Dexterity" by David Gramit, in which the quality of Czerny's musical production is highlighted, regardless of his theoretical and music-theoretical production. Ok. We are there. That being said, respect, esteem, all the sonatas played from memory... everything is fine............ but....... I read in a conversation notebook that when, around 1824, a friend asked Beethoven which edition of Czerny's Method he should purchase, Beethoven wrote: "let him leave it to me, let him use the Clementi method". A big round of applause. αὐτὸς ἔφa. Ipse Dixit.

Thanks Armando, I think Beethoven is not alone in this intimate thought.

Wasn't his nephew Karl also among his students?

Well, dear Azzurro, to define Karl as a pupil is a bit of an exaggeration. At the time, students studied music regularly, and Karl was no exception. Furthermore, it was his uncle's desire to make something of him, and he wanted to make a musician out of him in the first instance. In a famous book, Salomon traces B.'s profile starting precisely from the psychological projection he had towards his nephew (the trauma of this boy, contested between mother and uncle, is not even imaginable). As for the nephew's hand, however, very little remains to us: some very simple exercises right around the sketches of the Sonata Opus 106. (as well as the text of Holz Holz geigt die quartette WoO 204) It would be more interesting to analyze the manuscripts of B.'s brother and Karl's father, Caspar Anton Carl. He is the one who actually helped Ludwig, and I believe I can attribute to him at least the minuets WoO 12 and the trio for piano, violin, and cello Anhang 3.