Better A Blank Sheet Or A Cage?

I understand the reasoning, but if you relate Theme to Subject, there isn't really such a big difference.

There is the idea and the rest is to be built. Perhaps your teacher who guided you through the fugue was better than the one for the romance... maybe you are more naturally inclined toward one style and not the other.

What inhibits you in the romance? Even if the definition "blank page" says a lot.

Interesting topic, unsettling title...

Valchiria wrote:

I understand the reasoning, but if you relate Theme to Subject, it's not as if there is such a great difference.

However, effectively two different approaches are required; even the mindset changes and, for example, pianists have fewer problems with meter, already in the ear... while organists feel at home in the Baroque.

Let's look at the evolutions of the discussion

Oracolo wrote:

Now I say, even though the fugue is notoriously more difficult, why do I feel more at ease?

More difficult than what? A romance? That's not true. In a fugue, if the countersubject is well-written, you have already done 80% of the work and you must (to put it very, very roughly) "make the math work" (without claiming to write a masterpiece, but still writing a well-made and correct fugue). With a romance, things are different: given an antecedent, and having written a good consequent, you have written 8 bars. Period. The rest is to be developed. That is why you feel more at ease in the fugue: the fugue is easier (always, to put it in your terms, thinking small: exams).

Thanks to those who have already chimed in

....question, but then why is the fuga performed after the romanza?!

Well guys, the fugue is by definition the highest technique for processing starting material.

And, as in the Romance, the Fugue is free ... if we are talking about scholastic formulas then even the romance is a "cage" and the CS is eventually the theme of the B (let's read between the lines, please!)

Clearly the structures differ, but having the theme probably thirty bars already written and complete, in the fugue you only have one melody, even if it repeats, it is always just one melody

Oracolo wrote:

Thanks to those who have already intervened

....question, but then why is the fugue done after the romance ?!

Well, for the same reason that quadratic equations are learned after writing an essay... What is done later is not always more difficult in a broad sense: the acquisition of new techniques requires time, this is why the fugue is written afterwards. To write a fugue, one must certainly have a solid harmonic awareness, combined with the technique of counterpoint. A study by Clementi or Czerny is certainly more "difficult" than a two-voice invention by Bach (technically speaking), but, musically speaking, shall we even talk about it? And yet, one begins with those...

Carlos wrote:

To write a fugue, one must certainly have a solid harmonic awareness, joined with the technique of counterpoint.

Here lies the true answer; if this necessity did not exist, it would be done at the fourth. No?

Ludovica wrote:

Well guys, the fugue is by definition the highest technique for processing starting material.

By definition? Anyway, there is processing and then there is processing. In a fugue, we speak of contrapuntal processing. One should contextualize.

Ludovica wrote:

And, as in the Romanza, the Fugue is free ... if we are talking about scholastic formulas, then even the romanza is a "cage" and the CS is eventually the theme of the B (read between the lines, please!)

I understand that it is free, but, for example, a stretto, with a good given subject, "writes itself."

Ludovica wrote:

Clearly the structures differ, but having the theme probably thirty bars long means they are already written and complete; in a fugue you only have one melody, even if it repeats, it is always just one melody

Well, the fact that you call it a "melody" says a lot...

What do you mean by "having the theme probably thirty bars long means they are already written and complete"?

PS curiosity: why did you write Romanza and Fugue with the initial in bold?

Carlos wrote:

Well, the fact that you call it a "melody" says a lot...

I told you to read between the lines. I meant that you have to build 3 parts yourself; one is the CS... but the others are free parts and are perhaps meant for enjoyment.

Ergo, there is quite a lot to invent.

Carlos wrote:

What do you mean by "having the theme probably having about thirty bars already written and complete"?

Sorry, I meant 16

Carlos wrote:

PS curiosity: why did you write Romanza and Fuga with the initial in bold?

I was referring to the genre and not to school exercises

Carlos wrote:

By definition? Anyway, there is processing and processing. In the fugue, one speaks of contrapuntal processing. It should be contextualized.

...just because harmony is taken for granted, the vertical square must exist, therefore syntax must be respected.

Ludovica wrote:

I told you to read between the lines. I meant that you have to build 3 parts yourself; one is the CS... but the others are free parts and are perhaps meant for enjoyment.

Ergo, there is quite a lot to invent.

Much less than writing a rondo. Never written a fugue?

Ludovica wrote:

Sorry, I meant 16

Maybe 4? Never written a rondo?

Ludovica wrote:

I was referring to the genre and not to school exercises

Ok, spoken in camera caritatis, it is always written in lowercase (an aspiring proofreader teaches).

Question about the romance, this is the form they explained to me

A B A

A: 4+4+4+4 so a + b + a + c

B: 4+4+4+4 so d + e + d + f

A: 4+4+4+4 so a + g + a + h

So "a" appears 4 times, if the theme is 4 bars ... we are actually talking about 16 dates.

Did Carlos explain it to me incorrectly?

Zanzibar, Carlos likes to split hairs

Of course, in the most elementary model, there are PRACTICALLY 16 already given... then from there one can write the world... as in the fugue.

I don't know how many triple or quadruple fugues Carlos has written, surely it requires technique and imagination

Zanzibar wrote:

Did Carlos explain it to me incorrectly?

No, they explained it well to you, of course. I hadn't understood those "16 bars already written and complete" in the sense of copy-and-paste...

Ludovica wrote:

Zanzibar, Carlos likes to split hairs

True: but I only do it with people I like...

As I understand it, the romance was done in the seventh; in the fourth there was the short piece for pf

Therefore, fugue and romance are both in the seventh and both have their roots in material settled in the fourth: bass for the fugue and short piece for pf, for the romance.

Personally speaking, I would prefer a romance 100 times over a fugue

Gerardo wrote:

As far as I recall, the romance was done at the seventh; at the fourth there was the short piece for pf

Hmm... no, I did the romance at the IV; at the VII there is the option to choose between the Theme with variations and... oh my, I don't remember... help!

Composition - Ministerial Program

TECHNICAL SHEET

Course duration

10 years divided into 3 periods

- LOWER period (4 years)

- MIDDLE period (3 years)

- UPPER period (3 years)

COMPLETION Exams

- LOWER completion: (at the end of the 4th year)

- MIDDLE completion: (at the end of the 7th year)

- UPPER completion (DIPLOMA): (at the end of the 10th year)

Mandatory COMPLEMENTARY subjects with final license exam

- Theory, solfeggio and musical dictation (duration 3 years): in the LOWER period

- Poetic and dramatic literature (duration 1 year): in the MIDDLE period

- Complementary organ and Gregorian chant (duration 1 year): in the MIDDLE period

- Music history (duration 2 years): in the MIDDLE period

- Score reading (duration 9 years): 4 years in the LOWER period, 3 years in the MIDDLE period, 2 years in the UPPER period

- Musical aesthetics (duration 1 year): in the UPPER period

Mandatory COMPLEMENTARY subjects without final exam

- Choral exercises (duration and any exemptions at the discretion of individual conservatories)

Prerequisites

- The license exam for Theory, solfeggio and musical dictation must precede LOWER completion

- The license exam for Poetic and dramatic literature must precede MIDDLE completion

- The license exam for Complementary organ and Gregorian chant must precede MIDDLE completion

- The license exam for Music history must precede MIDDLE completion

- The lower license exam (4th year) of Score reading must precede LOWER completion

- The middle license exam (7th year) of Score reading must precede MIDDLE completion

- The upper license exam (9th year) of Score reading must precede UPPER completion

COMPOSITION

Ministerial programs - Completion exams

I.

Completion exams for the lower course

Four-part harmonization, with imitations, of a given bass.

Harmonization of a melody for voice and piano.

Composition of a short piece for piano on a given theme.

For each of these tests, a maximum time of 10 hours will be given.

Oral examination on the theory of harmony.

II.

Program of completion exams for the middle course

Composition of a four-part fugue on words and a theme assigned by the Commission to be performed within a maximum time of 18 hours.

Composition of double-choir counterpoint on a chant assigned by the Commission to be performed within a maximum time of 18 hours.

Composition of a wordless romance for piano, on a theme assigned by the Commission, to be performed within a maximum time of 12 hours.

Piano reading of an ancient aria chosen by the Commission from those of the nineteenth century.

Culture tests:

a) extemporaneous essay of modulations at the piano;

b) written analysis of a fugue or other vocal contrapuntal composition chosen by the Commission, to be performed within a maximum time of 6 hours;

c) oral discussion on matters of harmony and counterpoint.

III.

Diploma exam program

Composition, within a period of 15 days, of a symphonic piece or a lyrical scene or an oratorio piece of the candidate's choice on a subject and text assigned by the Ministry.

Composition of the first part of the 1st movement of a quartet or sonata on a theme assigned by the Ministry.

Composition of three variations for small orchestra on a theme assigned by the Ministry.

During this test and the one referred to in no. 2, for each of which 36 hours of available time are assigned, each candidate will remain closed in a dedicated room provided with a piano.

Written analysis of a musical piece of notable importance, chosen by the Ministry. (time available: 12 hours)

Culture tests:

a) oral examinations on instrumentation, orchestration and knowledge of forms;

b) discussion on the written tests.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CLARIFICATIONS REGARDING THE EXAM PROGRAMS

(C.M. 28.3.85)

LOWER COURSE COMPLETION:

Test no. 1: "Four-part harmonization, with imitations of a given bass". The test is to be carried out in the four clefs of soprano, alto, tenor, bass.

Test no. 2: "Oral examination on the theory of harmony". A grade must be assigned to the test which will contribute to the final average grade.

MIDDLE COURSE COMPLETION:

Test no. 1: "Composition of a four-part fugue on words and a theme assigned by the Commission to be performed within a maximum time of 18 hours". The test is to be carried out in the four clefs of soprano, alto, tenor, bass.

DIPLOMA EXAM: the tests must be taken in the following order:

1st test no. 2

2nd test no. 3

3rd test no. 4 (maximum time available 12 hours)

4th test no. 1