Brahms: Hungarian Dances

I challenge you that you won't be able to find it, the Hungarian Dances are without an opus number!

They are cataloged as WoO 1 (Werke ohne Opus)

See http://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_works_by_Johannes_Brahms

A doubt I've always had, but are these blessed dances for piano or orchestra? It seems to me that I read they were orchestrated later and many of them by other composers (not Brahms, to be clear).

RedScharlach wrote:

I challenge you that you won't be able to find it, the Hungarian Dances are countless!

They are cataloged as WoO 1 (Werke ohne Opus)

See http://imslp.org/wik...Johannes_Brahms

I had strong suspicions about the matter

Thank you

Tiger wrote:

A doubt I have always had, but are these blessed dances for piano or orchestra? It seems to me that I read they were orchestrated later and many of them by other composers (not Brahms, to be clear).

Really? I thought they were for orchestra and by Brahms

I wouldn't want to be a fanatic, but this is an excerpt from the Brahms catalogue taken from my website:

WoO 1

Twenty-one Hungarian Dances for piano four hands

in four booklets

Booklet I

Isteni Czardas - Allegro molto (g minor)

Emma Czardas - Allegro non assai (d minor)

Tolnai kakadalmas - Allegretto (F major)

Kalocsay-Emlek - Poco sostenuto (f minor)

Bartfai-Emlek - Allegro (F# minor).

Booklet II

Rozsa Bokor - Vivace (Db major)

Volkslied - Allegretto (A major)

Luiza Czardas - Presto (a minor)

Makoc Czardas - Allegro non troppo (e minor)

Tolnai Lakadalmas - Presto (E major)

Booklet III

Poco andante (d minor)

Presto (d minor)

Andantino grazioso (D major)

Un poco andante (d minor)

Allegretto grazioso (Bb major)

Con moto (f minor - major)

Booklet IV

Andantino (F# minor)

Molto vivace (D major)

Allegretto (b minor)

Poco allegretto (e minor)

Vivace (e minor)

Instrumentation: piano

Composition: 1852 - 1869

Edition: Simrock, Bonn, 1869 (booklets I-II) and Berlin, 1880 (III-IV)

Brahms adapted numbers 1 - 10 for piano two hands in 1872 and transcribed pieces no. 1, 3 and 10 for orchestra in 1873

Thank you Terenzio, which is further confirmation of what I later read on wiki; for those who are curious, there is also the list of the other "orchestrators"

http://de.wikipedia....Tänze_(Brahms)

Among whom the good Dvořák (from 17 to 21)

I put Brahms' catalogue on the website, so I only included what Brahms composed.

I am always very perplexed by lists of arrangements made by other composers because they are certainly incomplete.

I also did, for fun, an orchestration of Mozart's Sonata in C minor K 457, but I would think twice before including it in Mozart's catalogue.

For those who are curious, you can listen to it at the page

http://www.flaminioonline.it/pagina4.html

and also see my score.

I have a recording of the 21 Hungarian Dances by the Wiener Philharmoniker conducted by Claudio Abbado, I would say not bad for being "incomplete" works.

I noticed that scores are available on IMSLP, although I have never followed those scores while listening to my CD ... so I wouldn't know if those are incomplete or used for the making of the CD itself.

Frank wrote:

I have a recording of the 21 Hungarian Dances by the Wiener Philharmoniker conducted by Claudio Abbado; I would say not bad for being "incomplete" works.

I noticed that some scores are available on IMSLP, although I have never followed those scores while listening to my CD ... so I wouldn't know if those are incomplete or used for the production of the CD itself.

Perhaps I expressed myself poorly: it is not the arrangements that are incomplete, it is the lists that are not complete since they only report the works that the compiler of the list itself deems important.

@Terenzio

I didn't understand your last post, what do you mean by "it is the lists that are not complete"?

Lists of what? I mean, if Brahms wrote 21 Hungarian dances and there are 21 orchestrators (one per dance).. from where does the principle of incompleteness of the list arise?

Sorry, but I'm not very practiced with this stuff

Marzapane wrote:

@Terenzio

I didn't understand your last post, in what sense "it is the lists that are not complete"?

Lists of what? I mean, if Brahms wrote 21 Hungarian dances and there are 21 orchestrators (one per dance).. from where does the principle of incompleteness of the list arise?

Sorry, but I'm not very practiced with these things

In the past, it was absolutely normal for a composer, in addition to producing their own works, to rework the compositions of others. Liszt was a master in this field, but starting from Bach (a large part of the Cantatas reuse melodies from authors of the previous century), everyone has laid hands on the compositions of other composers. At the time, copyright did not exist (in Italy it was introduced due to the persistence of Senator Giuseppe Verdi).

We said that Brahms wrote the 21 Hungarian dances for piano four hands, then he himself reworked some for piano two hands and orchestrated 3 of them.

After him, others orchestrated the remaining dances. Dvorak's orchestrations are famous; he was particularly close to Brahms, who had helped him publish his early works.

Wikipedia reports the names of the orchestrators who, according to the author of the article, were the most important, but there were certainly other people who reworked these dances in various ways.

This is the reason why when I read a list of transcribers of a composition, I always remain skeptical. Are we certain that there are no other composers who have laid hands in various ways on Brahms' Hungarian Dances?

Note that for the fourth dance, Wikipedia indicates three orchestrations, the last of which is from 1955.

I understand Terenzio, everything is very clear now. In truth, however, when will the catalogue be truly complete? I think never; I myself have orchestrated something by Bach, and if I were to attempt one of Brahms' 21 Dances, that too would further contribute to making it incomplete.

Therefore, I think there is a tendency to list works of distinction or by renowned composers, so I find it legitimate, albeit incomplete, to propose a catalogue of the most well-known orchestrations, performed or by important composers.

Marzapane wrote:

I understand, Terenzio, everything is very clear now. In truth, however, when will the catalogue be truly complete? I think never; I myself have orchestrated something by Bach, and if I were to attempt one of Brahms' 21 Dances, that too would further contribute to making it incomplete.

Therefore, I think there is a tendency to list works of distinction or those by renowned composers, so I find it legitimate, albeit incomplete, to propose a catalogue of the best-known orchestrations, performed or by important composers.

If you want to satisfy your curiosity, go see Ferruccio Busoni's catalogue on my website.

In the second part, you will find a list of the reworks he made on the compositions of others

http://www.flaminioonline.it/Biografie/Busoni-catalogo.html