Given that there are great composers who have drawn from Brahms, so they had no doubts ... I think that, in the case where one struggles to recognize the value of Brahms' pieces, the problem is not properly Brahms's. But without wanting to change anyone's mind, Brahms is already consecrated in history as one of the all-time greats. Therefore, it seems more legitimate to me to try to identify those stylistic traits that make Brahms, which make us say "it's him" when we hear his music, and this regardless of how we, mere mortals, consider him.
Therefore, it seems more legitimate to me to try to identify the stylistic traits that make Brahms who he is, which make us say "it's him" when we hear his music, and this regardless of how we, mere mortals, perceive him.
I agree with you one hundred percent!
To put it another way... A very beautiful girl comes to mind, whom I liked very much years ago... To tell the truth, I don't like her anymore... And yet objectively I must admit that she is a beautiful girl! It's just that, after dating her for a while, I no longer find her so irresistible.
Faceti aside, what I was discussing before the thread took this other turn were precisely "the stylistic traits" (I like this Petrarchism!). And in fact, some of the points that had been put on the table (but they were out-of-context notes, and that was where my criticism began) are perfectly defined already in Brahms' early works. I mentioned op. 10 and op. 15 because they are pieces I have been studying lately (I should also add the Andante of op. 5), but it is necessary to delve deeper, to contextualize... in short, where, how, and why these exceeding triads, this modality, etc., etc.?
Parenthetically... chamber music in general remains irresistible to me regardless.
I don't know if this might be interesting regarding the topic, but since I was reviewing the Adagio of op. 15 [at 22:19 in the link] these days, I thought it might be useful to add something. Obviously just a brief mention, because forums do not seem like the most suitable places for analysis.
The mode change in m. 19 [24:40], from D major to d minor, is not just "expressive": it is the premise (or one of the premises, given also m. 10) of that C which I mentioned in a previous post.
The climax of the movement, mm. 80-84 [31:26], in addition to an orchestration that is truly eccentric for Brahms, is characterized by a descending harmonic sequence (from D major to C major) based once again on the change of mode: here (and elsewhere, obviously!) Schumann's model is indispensable.
In short, the main characteristics of Brahms's harmonic language are already perfectly developed. I could give other examples. The "cascading harmonies" are already found in the young Brahms: an example based on a change of mode can be found in Ballade op. 10 no. 4; but one could compare the cascade of thirds in the Andante of op. 3 with op. 119 no. 1: the piece by the older Brahms is together more ingenious and more condensed, but the harmonic foundations are analogous.
PS the adjective "graceful" [garbato] referred to by Mila regarding the Adagio of op. 15 seems to me, all in all, quite unfortunate.
In short, the main characteristics of Brahms's harmonic language are already perfectly developed. I could give other examples. The "cascading harmonies" can already be found in the young Brahms:
Red, this confirms that like all the greats, he had clear ideas even as a "little one"
Picking up a technique already developed by Beethoven, Brahms uses the juxtaposition of distant harmonic zones through connections not based on harmonic links.
The first phrase of the first movement of op. 60, in C minor (mm. 1-10), concludes with a suspended cadence on D, but it is an empty fifth, without the third B. At m. 11, instead of the tonic, B-flat bursts in dramatically, transposing the harmonic structure one tone lower: from I to VII, from C minor to B-flat minor, without modulation.
The double progression of mm. 13-20 arrives at the D of B-flat minor, but at m. 21 there is a rather surprising and very ingenious cadence: instead of G-flat major we find G major, which is a deceptive cadence to an altered VI, rather than a natural VI; and what's more, it is a major VI, namely the D of the original key.
But the oscillation between B-flat minor and C minor does not resolve until m. 27, with a D in C minor, which is also incomplete (this time the D is missing, which is replaced by E in the following measure).
And regarding empty fifths, which Frank had already spoken about, one of the most evocative examples is perhaps the beginning of the first Ballade of op. 10: evidently with the specific intention of giving it a folk and arcane tone.
At the beginning, it is used to connect the tonic and VI36 (actually, rather than VI36, it would be more correct to speak of the tonic with the sixth).
The connection between the first intermediate zone and the recapitulation of section A is achieved with a V36 with an augmented fifth that resolves to the tonic.
In the conclusion of part A, in G#m, an oscillation appears between the augmented triad D#-Fx-B and the VI (E-G#-B).
The augmented triad E-G#-B# is also found in the liquidation of part B, connected to the subdominant AM.
