Composition

Can something 'formless' exist?

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LucaCavaliere

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Opening post by LucaCavaliere

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«Form is the individual body of poetry (...); but shouldn't there also be a poetry deeply penetrated into the essence without the limits established by a form? »

[Bettina Brentano]

This question, which DanieleScarpetti brought up in the discussion "The Ninth is only the beginning," after an initial moment of difficulty, I understood in this way: Could there not be a poetry so.... beautiful, perfect, profound... that it could afford not to have the limits established by a form? (ultimately: to be able to be 'formless')

To my doubt about having understood it according to the original intentions, Daniele replied to me with this post

«Mine can only be a response of a general nature. As with all arts and forms of culture, especially from the second half of the 19th century, the need to write and to poet in a new, anti-traditional way—even from a technical-formal aspect—became increasingly alive and widespread, because the moods, problems, and customs of the people of that time were changing profoundly in reflection of the changing political-social situations.

Bettina Brentano, with this question of hers, was visionary because she anticipated what would become a need a few decades later: the need to break free from the traditional metrics—and thus from the form—of poetry, to create a new one that, in its content, could enter into the essence of the new problems and the new figures that the evolution of society proposed.

The evolution prophesied by the poetess will begin to bear its greatest fruit at the end of the 19th century when poets and literati coming from different currents: Scapigliati, Decadents... were nonetheless united in the common negation of traditional formulas, giving rise to a radical renewal that denied not only the validity of traditional metric forms, but also the old spirit, the civilization of the “fathers” and, obviously, above all, the Romantic one.

This was the first step; then came the Avant-gardes of the second half of the 20th century, and Poetry, like all Arts, emerged from all formalism».

The general nature of Daniele's response—as he himself maintains—is, in my opinion, a merit: the discourse is thus broadened to any form of art, and therefore to anything created or composed. And it is for this reason that I propose the issue under the 'Composition' section, even if not strictly musical.

With due respect (I do not know what is hidden behind these ellipsis points), to Bettina Brentano's question I would answer no: there can exist no work of art that does not have a form. I fully agree with the observations that Daniele proposes in his post which I have quoted above. However, an artist's eventual intolerance toward forms received from tradition never translates into the creation of something without a form, but, generally, into the creation of something with a different form, often less structured: simpler (it comes to mind, for example, the transition from a poem with rhyming verses to one in free verse). In other cases, the change is toward the production of something more structured (for example, increasingly dense polyphony instead of homophonic and homorhythmic procedures).

What do you think?... I cannot conceive of anything that can be without form.

Even a thought, to express it (even just to oneself), must be formulated.

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Reply 2 by danielescarpetti

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I should have added from every pre-established formalism and datum. In the sense that, unlike the 19th century, where there existed a fixed form from which one could not deviate and within which one could and had to operate, today every artist has—or invents—their own form. In other words, today there is no longer a single form but a plurality of forms that develop from one another. This means that what yesterday was considered formless or informal is no longer so today, because it evolves with aesthetic discussion, ensuring that forms also evolve with and thanks to it.

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Reply 3 by Frank

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Form as the "center of the world" is a very European concept; one should look to those composers who have poked their noses outside of Europe, and if I were you, I would try to delve into at least a bit of Messiaen's aesthetics.

In a broad sense, man is capable of seeking and FINDING forms everywhere, but this necessity is not universal. Music from the Far East is circular; it has religious implications that do not foresee form in the slightest. Question: does the spirit have or can it have a form? Which one, and how to translate this form into music?

This is obviously very general.

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Reply 4 by Kappa

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Speaking of Messiaen, it comes to mind that for him Debussy was a model as a musician of harmonic sound-color, a master admirably close to the complexity of natural phenomena by virtue of his divine rhythmic freedom.

And indeed, the two composers remained quite distant, however, in their conception of form and in its internal articulation.

I don't know if this helps or just makes more of a mess

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Reply 5 by LucaCavaliere

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Frank wrote:

Question, does the spirit have or can it have a form? Which one and how to translate this form into music?

The spirit (I had considered it )... I would say no. But the most honest answer is: I don't know.

In fact, my question was, precisely, whether it can not have a form >>> a thing created (by man)

Well yes: in the question of the discussion title I was imprecise.

As soon as I can, I will delve deeper into Messiaen

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Reply 6 by RedScharlach

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I don't know how much this has to do with the topic, but anyway: I remember a long discussion on forms, structures, genres, and techniques regarding Sonata form, Rondo, Fugue, and Concerto. Everyone agreed on classifying Sonata form and Rondo as forms, while the debate heated up over Fugue and Concerto: are they or are they not forms? They certainly are not forms in the sense that Sonata form and Rondo are; just as certainly – at least from my point of view – every Fugue and every Concerto has a form. Should we therefore distinguish between being a form and having a form?

Probably the whole issue arises from the fact that the word 'form' itself is prone to ambiguity, being a metaphor itself – yet another one – both extremely useful and misleading, like all the tools we use to talk about music. I will not therefore ask for the umpteenth time "what is form in music?" but rather invite, once again, to examine the perspective not of the listener but of the composer, and to consider form not as a series of empty boxes to be filled, but as tools to develop a discourse – and so we move from the architectural metaphor to the linguistic metaphor, just to complicate our lives.

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Reply 7 by LucaCavaliere

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But no Red! ... no complication.

On the contrary: thank you for the additional integration that was missing . . . "elaborating a discourse".

In the meantime, I ask forgiveness for one thing. Here we have gone ahead talking about 'metaphors' - myself first - when for the images I/we used it is more correct to speak of 'analogies'. Anyone interested like me can easily check for themselves, as I did, what a metaphor properly is.

That being said... "what is form in music?".

Well, you say that you don't want to ask it, but immediately after you propose your answer, quite concise: not empty boxes but tools to elaborate discourses. I agree.

Certain musics have the 'form of buildings', others have the 'form of discourses'.

I note that there are many (from many fields) the tools we use to talk about music...

Tall useful. Let's hope not too misleading.

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