Exams

Chopin - Ballade No. 4 In F Min

9 replies 4,937 views

Started by

Thesimon

Administrator

Administrator

Opening post by Thesimon

Posts
4,504
City
Ariccia, RM

Hi everyone, I've started looking at Ballade No. 4 in F minor again, which I haven't done for years; the last time I played it was in a concert, I think I was 16 or 17 years old, if you can even remember. It's hard to start dusting it off!

Getting to the point, for this diploma the ballade absolutely must be dusted off and this time I won't let dust settle on it anymore because I believe it is truly the mature Chopin, a UNIQUE piece of its kind. I have recorded a part of it (the part I have dusted off so far) and I will proceed slowly; from now until September there is time to fix it properly, considering that I only looked over these pages I recorded for about an hour. In the meantime, I am pasting it in this post; anyone who wants to can intervene and give their advice and/or criticism, which are always welcome. Besides, at the exam I will be heavily criticized, so it's better to gather the opinions of everyone interested.

Here is the streaming format.

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/condivisione/ballata4.mp3

Here is the link for those who want to download it. To download (on Windows) right-click on the link and select Save target as... (on Mac) ctrl + click and select save linked document with name...

Simone Renzi - Chopin, Ballade n°4 in F min (Part)

Thanks to everyone who wants to comment.

Member

Reply 2 by Marica

Posts
4
City
Matera

Hi theSimon,

this piece is something adorable, as indescribable as the emotion it evokes in those who listen to it and I imagine in those who play it!! I would have liked to perform it for my diploma, but in the end I decided to study Ballade No. 2 Op. 38 and to reserve this marvel for another moment in my life. I confess it is one of the pieces I listen to most; I have practically saved it everywhere from my phone to my mp3 player and even as a YouTube favorite :-) I believe it is a true prestige for you to bring this ballade to your diploma....and even more so to dust it off later during a period of maturity to rediscover it at an important moment! I listened to the audio file and what I caught most was the intention and also the natural 'shyness' one feels when re-establishing contact with the past, especially if one was a child. I do not feel worthy of giving specific advice; among musicians we listen to each other and one should try to discover all the strengths that in each performer remain a bit more hidden, in order to bring out the true essence of the music as well as of the person playing, thus animating the enjoyment of the soul and senses of everyone present. In this case, what could make this fantastic dusting off pleasant for you is the memory of the past, the thought of who you were when you were 16 and who you are now, imagining a bit of having to tell yourself something, having to say something to yourself and having to add something more that you can now express better. And then from there will come all the technical passages and nuances that will be nothing more than part of the story, your story. This ballade makes me immerse myself deeply within myself... have a good journey too!

Moderator

Reply 3 by pianoexpert

Posts
3,876
City
rocca di papa

Dear Simone,

Great work, especially in terms of interpretation. Here is an example of the search for sound and touch. Of the right weight in dualized parts entrusted to a single hand. In short, a search for technical solutions.... suggested by the music! Hurrah.

At an examination, one might only object to the wise and correct liberties taken with the tempo and certain rhythmic figurations, but I like them.

As Cortot says in his book "Some Aspects of Chopin", two indispensable elements are found in Chopin: Rubato and the "classical vein". Incredible!!! Chopin was very rigorous regarding tempo and rhythm, but..... everything is inserted into his "rubato".

The sound is beautiful, and the balance between the right and left hands is beautiful.

As I was replying to Saverio, possessing and developing technical and musical ability means being constantly attentive to the proportions of sound planes and the "weighted" movements of our fingers, wrist, arm, and shoulder. Rhythmic control, yes, certainly, albeit within freedom and flexibility, provided that one always keeps in mind not just a simple "variation" in the speed of melodic and rhythmic cells, but their variation within the base tempo. Think of the difference felt when sitting in the passenger seat of a car. We can perceive very well when the driver slows down using the brake pedal versus engine braking......with the relative sensation of "security".

Compliments to Simone, a talented young man and a promising Chopin interpreter.

Paolo

Administrator

Reply 4 by Thesimon

Posts
4,504
City
Ariccia, RM

Thank you both for the intervention. Chopin's Ballade No. 4 is something one never finishes discovering. I find it very useful to record myself while studying because, by listening back, I always find ways to discover new things or modify certain interpretative cells that don't quite convince me. Technology is a great discovery! 😕

I can't wait to finish dusting it off; I never get tired of studying and playing it, in my opinion one of the most beautiful pieces Chopin ever composed. Honor to the great master who should never have died...

Member

Reply 5 by Dave

Posts
70

TheSimon wrote:

Hi everyone, I've started looking at Ballade No. 4 in F minor again, which I haven't played for years; the last time I played it was in a concert, I think I was 16 or 17 years old, if I can even remember. It's hard to start dusting it off!

Getting to the point, for this diploma the ballade absolutely must be dusted off and this time I won't let dust settle on it anymore because I believe it is truly the mature Chopin, a UNIQUE piece in its genre. I have recorded a part of it (the part I have dusted off so far) and I will proceed slowly; from now until September there is time to get it right, considering that I looked over these pages I recorded in about an hour. In the meantime, I am pasting it into this post; anyone who wants to can intervene and give their advice and/or criticism, which are always welcome. Besides, at the exam I will be heavily criticized, so it's better to gather the opinions of everyone interested.

Here is the streaming format.

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/condivisione/ballata4.mp3

Here is the link for those who want to download it. To download (on Windows) right-click on the link and select Save object as... (on Mac) ctrl + click and select save linked document with name...

Simone Renzi - Chopin, Ballade n°4 in F min (Part)

Thanks to everyone who wants to comment.

Compliments Simone, you are truly very good! 😉

I didn't know this composition by Chopin; it is absolutely delicate and transports the listener, then it has a flavor of melancholy combined with a bit of anger. Wonderful.

Simone, but how do you manage to record yourself, if I may ask?

PS: I try to download it and save it on iPad. 😕

Member

Reply 6 by michele75

Posts
20
City
Lecce

pianoexpert wrote:

At an examination, they might only object to the wise and correct liberties regarding tempo and certain rhythmic figurations, but I like them.

I hope they don't "take liberties," and I am sure even Chopin himself wouldn't want that! 😕

Otherwise... they would have to have something to say about the interpretations of various Yundi Li, Igoshina, etc. 😉

I liked Simone's interpretation very much 😉

Administrator

Reply 7 by Thesimon

Posts
4,504
City
Ariccia, RM

Thank you for the compliment. The ballad here is just a small piece; in its entirety, it lasts about 15 minutes.

There are two methods for recording: one quite complex, the other simple, but we will analyze both in some videos dedicated specifically to piano recording.

The first, the simple one, consists of an illusion. Let me explain better... It is recorded via a MIDI keyboard (now all 88-key weighted digital pianos have a MIDI output). Basically, a MIDI interface is connected between the keyboard and the computer, and the performance is recorded in Logic or other equivalent software. In Logic, a MIDI track is created, which is what we record on, and virtual instruments (in our case, a sampled piano) are loaded onto this MIDI track. The result is what you hear in this ballad, namely a piano recorded in a studio with the best equipment.

The second method, the complex one—I would dare say professional—involves recording the acoustic instrument in a studio. It is very difficult for several reasons. The first is that it requires knowledge of specific hardware components to perform the recording, knowledge of their assembly and optimal setting for the type of recording we are going to do, in-depth knowledge of the software sequencers used for capture, and finally, the price, since these are components that cost quite a bit.

The required hardware components are as follows:

- An excellent microphone preamplifier with at least 2 channels for the piano (From 700 to 4500 euros, depending on quality).

- An excellent AD/DA converter (From 500 to 3500 euros depending on quality).

- Two studio condenser microphones (The best for piano are Shoeps - around 1000 euros each, you need 2. There are also lower-cost microphones with which you can still achieve an excellent result).

- An analog or digital mixer.

- A good sound card (If working with an analog mixer, in a digital one it is usually included with a Firewire 400 or 800 interface).

- A fairly recent computer (It is very important that the hard disk has a rotation speed of at least 7200 RPM).

- Sequencing software. There are many, depending on what a person feels most comfortable with (Logic, Nuendo, Cubase, etc.).

- Microphone stands

- Good shielded XLR cables with gold-plated connectors.

One can opt for slightly less expensive microphones and less powerful computers, but what one cannot save on are the converter and the preamplifiers (It is these two components that build the digital sound).

Once someone has decided to spend, roughly keeping it low at around 2000/3000 euros, the theory comes in.

One must know how to position the microphones; for the piano and generally, barring exceptions, for all acoustic instruments, stereo recording techniques (Stereo Imaging) must be used. We will do a tutorial on various miking techniques for different acoustic instruments. There are many such techniques for piano recording, and one is chosen over another in relation to the room acoustics, the available space, the number of channels available on the preamplifier, and many other variables that we will see in the videos.

Once everything is set up, you proceed with the audio check, meaning making small adjustments to the microphone positions, the input signal volume, etc.

Such adjustments are all the smaller the higher the quality of the equipment we have at our disposal. With an HR-3V preamplifier and a good AD/DA converter, often there is no need to touch anything or, at least, very little needs to be adjusted.

Since the piano is an instrument with a very wide dynamic range, it is very difficult to microphone; because with microphones too close to the strings inside the soundboard to make the "pianissimo" heard well, there is a risk of clipping when the pianist performs a sforzato. Therefore, one tries to adjust by using pads of 10 or 20 dB, or by moving the microphones slightly away from the soundboard, or even by changing the miking technique.

We then start with the recording. The pianist will perform their pieces, and after that it doesn't end here... We proceed with post-production. Using a computer, the sound is equalized, eliminating any potential sonic impurities (sound too dark or too bright, sound too dry or too wet, ambience, reverb, compression -> little on the piano). Once post-production is completed, we finally have the final file called Mastering of the production. With mastering, one will then proceed to normalize the file to a maximum peak of -1.0dB and to write it to disk or publish it on the internet.

As you can see, recording an acoustic piano is truly very difficult and requires a very trained ear but above all a maniacal study of a series of topics that are not entirely simple, such as acoustics (mathematics).

So a question will spontaneously arise in you: "But then why don't we all just use the first method and the result is guaranteed!" But unfortunately it is not that simple. Using the first method, the result is certainly good but not like recording an acoustic piano live... Why?

Here are the reasons:

1. Most piano sound libraries in circulation have a maximum of 16 dynamic levels, with the exception, if I remember correctly, of the Garritan Steinway which is recognized by Steinway (the only library that has 127 sound levels for a total of about 320GB of samples, but don't take the figures too seriously because I don't remember very well, I should go and recheck the specifications). In essence, therefore, the dynamic levels of such libraries are 16 levels that reach 127 via software by increasing and decreasing the volume starting from the 16 recorded samples to make them 127. You understand well that recording a pianissimo and increasing its volume to make it sound like a mezzo piano is not timbrally the same thing as directly recording a mezzo piano, so many dynamic nuances are lost which in an acoustic piano are almost infinite, whereas in digital they reach a maximum of 127.

2. The harmonic ratios of a chord recorded from an acoustic piano do not produce the same effect as the same chord created by recording three or more notes separately and then putting them together.

3. Recording from an acoustic piano gives you the way to seek out the sound that most gratifies you in the recording, something you cannot do, or that you can anyway only summarily with post-production on audio samples that were recorded according to a sound engineer's taste but which might not respect your taste in sound.

4. Recording an acoustic piano live is always a new sonic experience; using samples always means the same experience.

5. Any sonic imperfections, according to my philosophy of sound, enrich the piano performance making it real.

There are clearly also advantages to MIDI recording at the expense of acoustic recording, for example the possibility to cut and paste with much more ease compared to the cut and paste of waveforms. Or the possibility to correct any "wrong notes" committed during performance in post-production without necessarily having to re-record the phrase in which the error occurred.

In short, everything has its pros and cons, but my aesthetic sense compels me to say that acoustic performances always preserve that personal and real character of interpretation and piano sound.

I hope I have been exhaustive; for any other question, do not hesitate to ask...

Best regards,

Member

Reply 8 by Dave

Posts
70

TheSimon wrote:

Thank you for the compliment. The ballad here is just a small piece; the whole thing lasts about 15 minutes.

There are two methods for recording, one quite complex and the other simple, but we will analyze both in some videos dedicated specifically to piano recording.

The first, the simple one, consists of an illusion. Let me explain better... It is recorded via a MIDI keyboard (now all 88-key weighted digital pianos have a MIDI output). Basically, a MIDI interface is connected between the keyboard and the computer, and the performance is recorded in Logic or other equivalent software. In Logic, a MIDI track is created, which is what we record on, and virtual instruments (in our case, a sampled piano) are loaded onto this MIDI track. The result is what you hear in this ballad, namely a piano recorded in a studio with the best equipment.

The second method, the complex one, I dare say professional, involves recording the acoustic instrument in a studio. It is very difficult for several reasons. The first is the fact that it requires knowledge of specific hardware components to perform the recording, knowledge of their assembly and optimal setting for the type of recording we are going to do, in-depth knowledge of the software sequencers used for capture, and lastly, the price, since these are components that cost quite a bit.

The required hardware components are as follows:

- An excellent microphone preamplifier with at least 2 channels for the piano (From 700 to 4500 euros, depending on quality).

- An excellent AD/DA converter (From 500 to 3500 euros depending on quality).

- Two studio condenser microphones (The best for piano are Shoeps - around 1000 euros each, you need 2. There are also lower-cost microphones with which you can still achieve an excellent result).

- An analog or digital mixer.

- A good sound card (If you work with an analog mixer, in a digital one it is usually included with a Firewire 400 or 800 interface).

- A fairly recent computer (It is very important that the hard disk has a rotation speed of at least 7200 RPM).

- Sequencing software. There are many, depending on what a person feels most comfortable with (Logic, Nuendo, Cubase, etc.).

- Microphone stands

- Good shielded XLR cables with gold-plated connectors.

One can opt for slightly less expensive microphones and less powerful computers, but what one cannot save on are the converter and the preamplifiers (It is these two components that build the digital sound).

Once someone has decided to spend, roughly keeping it low at around 2000/3000 euros, the theory comes in.

It is necessary to know how to position the microphones; for the piano and generally, with exceptions, for all acoustic instruments, stereo recording techniques (Stereo Imaging) must be used. We will do a tutorial on various miking techniques for different acoustic instruments. There are many of these techniques for piano recording, and one is chosen over another in relation to the room acoustics, the available space, the number of channels available on the preamplifier, and many other variables that we will see in the videos.

Once everything is set up, you proceed with the audio check, meaning making small adjustments to the microphone positions, the input signal volume, etc.

Such adjustments are all the smaller the higher the quality of the equipment we have at our disposal. With an HR-3V preamplifier and a good AD/DA converter, often there is no need to touch anything or, at least, very little needs to be touched.

Since the piano is an instrument with a very wide dynamic range, it is very difficult to microphone, as placing microphones too close to the strings inside the soundboard to make the "pianissimo" heard well risks clipping when the pianist performs a sforzato. Therefore, one tries to adjust by using pads of 10 or 20 dB, or by slightly moving the microphones away from the soundboard, or even changing the miking technique.

We then start with the recording. The pianist will perform their pieces, but it doesn't end there... We proceed with post-production. Using a computer, the sound is equalized to eliminate any potential sonic impurities (sound that is too dark or too bright, sound that is too dry or too wet, ambience, reverb, compression -> little on the piano). Once post-production is complete, we finally have the final file called Mastering of the production. With mastering, one will then proceed to normalize the file to a maximum peak of -1.0dB and to writing it to disk or publishing it on the internet.

As you can see, recording an acoustic piano is truly very difficult and requires a very trained ear but above all a maniacal study of a series of topics that are not entirely simple, such as acoustics (mathematics).

So a question will spontaneously arise in you: "But then why don't we all just use the first method and the result is guaranteed!" But unfortunately it is not that simple. Using the first method, the result is certainly good, but not like recording an acoustic piano live... Why?

Here are the reasons:

1. Most piano sound libraries in circulation have a maximum of 16 dynamic levels, with the exception, if I remember correctly, of the Garritan Steinway which is recognized by Steinway (the only library that has 127 sound levels for a total of about 320GB of samples, but don't take the figures too seriously because I don't remember perfectly, I should go and recheck the specifications). In essence, therefore, the dynamic levels of such libraries are 16 levels that reach 127 via software by increasing and decreasing the volume starting from the 16 recorded samples to make them 127. You understand well that recording a pianissimo and increasing its volume to make it sound like a mezzo piano is not timbrally the same thing as directly recording a mezzo piano, so many dynamic nuances are lost which in an acoustic piano are almost infinite, whereas in digital they reach a maximum of 127.

2. The harmonic ratios of a chord recorded from an acoustic piano do not produce the same effect as the same chord created by recording three or more notes separately and then putting them together.

3. Recording from an acoustic piano gives you the way to seek out the sound that most gratifies you in the recording, something you cannot do, or that you can anyway only summarily with post-production on audio samples that were recorded according to a sound engineer's taste but which might not respect your taste in sound.

4. Recording an acoustic piano live is always a new sonic experience; using samples always means the same experience.

5. Any sonic imperfections, according to my philosophy of sound, enrich the piano performance by making it real.

There are clearly also advantages to MIDI recording at the expense of acoustic recording, for example the possibility to cut and paste with much more ease compared to the cut and paste of sound waves. Or the possibility to correct any "wrong notes" committed during performance in post-production without necessarily having to re-record the phrase in which the error occurred.

In short, everything has its pros and cons, but my aesthetic sense compels me to say that acoustic performances always preserve that personal and real character of interpretation and piano sound.

I hope I have been exhaustive; for any other question, do not hesitate to ask...

Best regards,

Thank you Simone, you are very kind to share all these skills and knowledge! 😕

So if I may ask, I have a YAMAHA P-85, what type of cable should I purchase to connect it to my computer, keeping in mind that I have an iMac?

And can I use it by using MuseScore, the freeware notation software, as MIDI?

Administrator

Reply 9 by Thesimon

Posts
4,504
City
Ariccia, RM

PianoScholar wrote:

Thank you Simone, you are very kind to share all these skills and knowledge! 😕

But so if I may ask you, I have a YAMAHA P-85, what type of cable should I purchase to connect it to my computer, keeping in mind that I have an iMac?

And can I use it using MuseScore freeware notation software as MIDI?

Don't mention it, of course, we will make video courses on everything as soon as I free myself a little from the commitments that seem never-ending.

The Yamaha P-85 is perfectly fine. 88 weighted keys and MIDI in/out. The iMac is also great, excellent choice. Rather than using it with MIDI MuseScore, since you have a Mac, I would use it with GarageBand or even better with Logic if you can manage it. I am making video courses on Logic and by following the first video courses you can easily understand how to use it to play with a MIDI keyboard live.

To connect it to the PC, you need a MIDI interface. If you don't have a professional audio interface that has a MIDI in, you can use the iMac's by buying a USB MIDI interface.

You can find it at this address on eBay for about 35 euros + shipping costs. Once you have the interface, you just need to connect the MIDI cable to the out of the keyboard and obviously the USB to the Mac. Inside Logic it is automatically recognized. You create a midi track, load an acoustic piano sample onto the VST and play, or you play and record yourself. As you can see, it's very simple. Although as I repeat to you, I prefer acoustic recording which unfortunately requires many more precautions.

For any other question, I am here...

Best regards

Moderator

Reply 10 by Frank

Posts
3,838
City
-

I am sharing an extremely rare and exceptional archival document: Yves Nat and Alfred Cortot while teaching at the Conservatoire national supérieur de musique de Paris

https://www.facebook.com/gilberto.serembe/posts/1036288203082083#!/video.php?v=489657911208661&pnref=story

https://www.facebook.com/gilberto.serembe/posts/1036288203082083#!/video.php?v=489657911208661&pnref=story
Log in to participate