Chopin Etude No. 12 op 25

Ah, I thought 2-1-3-4-5! Now that you've told me the right way, I tried it and succeeded, but it is still difficult to grasp harmonically; in fact, if you look, I press the B slightly.

No, that's not it, you are rotating your hand (pronation)... The article talks about passing under the thumb (straight hand and thumb passing underneath, which for me is impossible), the hand must be straight; even in the other video you posted, you tend to "flop" the hand.

TheSimon wrote:

No, that's how you are rotating your hand (pronation)... The article talks about passing under the thumb (straight hand and the thumb passing underneath, which for me is impossible); the hand must be straight, even in the other video you posted you tend to "flop" the hand.

Forgive my ignorance, but what does it mean to "sbracare" (flop/slump) the hand? In the case where the hand must stay straight, I think it is impossible for a human to succeed because they would need fingers 3-4 cm longer than standard length... although anyway, I don't read of an obligation to have a straight hand, which would make everything more realistic...

PS: regarding "sbracare," I think it is right to do so in these measurements because one is measuring the maximum extension; in fact, I read the word "Stretch" in the article, and putting two and two together... it is a literal "stretching" of the hand. It seems more logical to me

This is what is reported in the article you posted.

the right could manage C (second finger)–E–G–C–E (thumb under)

Thumb Under means 'Pollice Sotto'... If you rotate your hand, you are not using the thumb-under technique. Thumb-under is what is used when playing scales slowly, meaning the thumb that tucks under the palm of the hand. With thumb-under, I believe that extension is impossible to reach. I have tried it and I barely reach D even when playing C with my thumb and straining a lot.

'Sbracare' (collapsing/flopping) means bending the hand, rotating the wrist, excessively towards one side of the keyboard. Conversely, the fingers should always be parallel to the key.

If we must stop and talk about piano technique in a strict sense, talking about Stretching, I believe these positions are anything but stretching exercises. Stretching should relax muscles and tendons; these positions do exactly the opposite. Furthermore, solutions in piano technique are those suggested within a musical context, and I have never had the opportunity to observe any score featuring chords with such fingerings. Trying such wide positions for an extended period can only do harm, especially if used for pure showmanship. I do not believe that Rachmaninoff's position, even if it were feasible for someone, could be used in any musical context; it is merely something to be used for performance. If one looks for exercises to help widen the hand to reach larger intervals, many can be found in literature. Many in Chopin's studies, both for the left hand (see, for example, Op. 10 No. 9) and for the right hand (see, for example, Op. 10 No. 11).

I believe this discussion about extensions is quite useless, what is it for?

I agree with TheSimon when he says that stretching is a whole different thing. My hand hurts just looking at the photos you posted... I also think they are just show-off things and that's it. There are many people with small hands who play everything and at least in the piano field, I don't see this game of who has the biggest one. Maybe a large hand helps, but I don't think it makes a difference to take an eleventh instead of a twelfth. This is my thought.

Maybe the problem is for those who barely hit a ninth

There, I was referring exactly to this!

I agree completely! Taking the positions we have posted feels more like trying to act cool than anything else. A composer who, in literature, writes an chord like the one reported by Rachmaninov on the left is a composer who does not know how to compose. I recall, in fact, that one of the prerogatives of a composer is to write music that is performable. It would be as if I built a car with the seats far from the steering wheel and the pedals. Only someone taller than 2 meters and 5 can manage to drive it... That car will certainly be a failure.

I understand what you mean TheSimon, but it could also be a custom-made machine. I had a friend who was 2 meters tall and to drive the cinquecento (I'm talking about the original car and not the subsequent releases) he had removed the front seat and sat on the rear one.

If an interpreter has a very large hand and asks me for a piece that uses those intervals, it is not "not knowing how to compose," it is simply "having honored a commission."

I remember, among other things, that it happens cyclically in music history that virtuosity increases with the close proximity of performers and composers. To be clear, Berio's sequence for solo voice could only be performed by his wife... and yet. In short, one must always dig deeper and not generalize. For example, I don't know why there is that interval in the Rachmaninov piece, does anyone know? And yet Rachmaninov knew how to compose. So even if someone writes today, that interval could be plausible...

Something else also comes to mind; just as happened with the average height of men (which has increased over time), the average hand size has also increased.

Gerardo wrote:

I understand what you mean TheSimon, but it could also be a custom-made machine. I had a friend who was 2 meters tall and to drive the Cinquecento (I'm talking about the original car, not the later releases) he had removed the front seat and sat on the rear one.

If an interpreter has a very large hand and asks me for a piece that utilizes those intervals, it is not "not knowing how to compose," it is simply "having honored a commission."

I remember, among other things, that it happens cyclically in music history that virtuosity increases with the close proximity of performers and composers. To be clear, Berio's sequence for solo voice could only be afforded by his wife... and yet. In short, one must always dig deeper and not generalize. For example, I don't know why there is that interval in the Rachmaninov piece; does anyone know? And yet Rachmaninov knew how to compose. Therefore, even if someone writes today, that interval could be plausible...

Ok but wait, you are talking to me about a commission, meaning you are talking about the exception that proves the rule, and if we want to try to extract a rule that holds true in its entirety, we must rely on statistics and not split hairs (I am also speaking against my own interests since I take those chords, and this argument should be made by those who don't hit them; the point is that whether one hits them or not, there are objective reasons that refute certain theses). Once upon a time, being a composer was indeed an elite job, but not as elite as we know it today. The composer had his publishers who printed the pieces and marketed them. To draw a parallel, the discussion is very similar to what happens today with record labels; the same was once true for the composer and his publisher. Musical fashion was that way...

If I, as a composer, have to live off the music I write, I must write music that can be performed by a large number of people and not just by those who hit a twelfth, otherwise I will starve. Returning to the car parallel, it's fine with me if it can be a choice and it might be okay as a one-off, but if I start building cars only for those taller than 2 meters, my company will probably have a very short life. Among the rules for a composer—and I invite Frank, Geppino, and whoever else wants to weigh in—there should also be the performability of a musical composition; this is to say that technical difficulties aside, certain things must be playable. In literature, there are certainly twelfths to be played, but how many are there? In the life of a composer, how many compositions are written for giant hands alone?

Let's think then of Ravel, who wrote for Wittgenstein (Is that how it's spelled?) a concerto for the left hand alone because he lost his right arm during the First World War. Certain things are, without a shadow of a doubt, choices worthy of all possible respect, but we must recognize that they are still meteors.

Given that, in my opinion, you are saying the same thing (Gerardo/TheSImon),

TheSimon wrote:

If I am a composer and I have to live off the music I write, I must write music that can be performed by a large number of people and not just by those who can hit a twelfth, otherwise I will starve.

put that way, it is a bit "dangerous"

In fact, when writing for an acoustic instrument, one should take into account the fact that the composition is intended for a human endowed with certain characteristics.

First of all, the range must be placed within a context; for example, it should be related to the tempo of the piece or the moment in which a certain wide interval is inserted. A slow passage can allow one to venture more, a fast passage less; and this applies to all instruments.

Usually, one writes for very specific contexts, so the primary intended use of the piece is always known (...for posterity we shall see); if the goal is mass consumption, clearly it is not enough to consider only the "hand span" parameter, but also much more (Allevi is a professional at this). If it is an exercise, one gives oneself a grid of rules and must necessarily base it on an average hand size, being careful with the minor ninth and using the major ninth sparingly (and it depends on which keys )... besides, we are already heading in a different direction.

... and so on.

Surely absolutes never exist

So you are confirming to me that choosing to include twelfths involves making very targeted choices...

When you say...

Frank wrote:

In fact, when writing for an acoustic instrument, one should take into account the fact that the composition is intended for a human endowed with certain characteristics.

I interpret it like this... Between the lines you are saying that if you write a musical piece containing twelfth chords, you know perfectly well that your piece will be destined for a very narrow circle of performers. This is a choice and that's fine. However, I don't think you would opt to always write pieces with twelfth chords or, more generally, for narrow circles of performers; otherwise, in the end, who will play your pieces? I spoke about twelfths because that is the topic, but it could also have been composing a piece to be played facing away from the piano with the right hand in the bass and the left in the treble—let's say more generally pieces for an "human endowed with certain characteristics"—and it seems to me that both examples always follow the trend of "pieces to show off," because I believe that playing a piece where there are twelfth chords is not much different from playing turned around or lying under the piano, holding onto the keyboard while playing.

I think the market works in a very simple way: if something is aesthetically beautiful, functional, usable by most people, and perhaps even at a low price, it will make a fortune. Of course, in music, this reasoning isn't quite like that for a series of reasons; certainly, however, it is a fact that if a piece is played by many people, it can be said to be a famous piece (attention, I am talking about a famous piece and not a famous composer -> therefore the piece also becomes famous).

Returning to composers, in Liszt there are occasions where twelfth chords are written (very rarely), even in the Transcendental Etudes if I'm not mistaken, but arpeggiated... In the Transcendental Etudes, which are by no means a small thing, one reaches at most a tenth! As far as I remember, it seems to me that I encountered a pure twelfth without arpeggiation only in Liebestraum, but one must check the versions; in some there is arpeggiation there too. Even Rachmaninoff, don't you think he used them that much? It seems to me there is one in a prelude from op. 32, otherwise just many tenths which already represent an obstacle for many!! Perhaps here we are losing sight of the topic we are talking about, or perhaps by talking about it so much, the brain has automatically discredited it, just as happens when you repeat the same word like a parrot twenty times; it loses its meaning... I assure you that for many people, reaching a harmonic twelfth is a problem; for 90%, an eleventh is already impossible (I am always talking about harmonic, not arpeggiated)... I remind you that here we are talking about a twelfth C3 - G4, D3 - A4 (whatever you want) taken with a single hand...

Frank wrote:

Surely absolutes never exist

I agree, but majorities always exist in large numbers...

It would be nice to see how many pianists registered here on the site can catch a twelfth, clearly demonstrable with photos, just as Pianothor and I did. To be optimistic, 10 people, I don't think more... But I continue to say that for the piano repertoire, having the extension to cover a tenth is more than enough. Catching a twelfth can only be aimed at showing off because in all piano literature, the occasions in which one must catch a twelfth harmonically can be counted on the fingers of a single hand; you don't even need both.

I don't know if my point of view is clearer now. Sorry for any conceptual errors, but I am completely dazed from a cough and cold that won't leave me alone.

Postscript...

Obviously, everyone can have their own idea on this matter and I will not start judging anything, of course; democracy first and foremost, and everyone is free to express their convictions. When I speak about something, however, I like to stick to the facts and provide my reasons developed by reasoning on these facts, and the facts are that the twelfths taken as a harmonic chord—I repeat, not arpeggiated, because if you arpeggiate them even my 90-year-old grandmother would get them—appear in the entire piano literature perhaps at most 5 times, I believe even less, but I want to be indulgent.

I totally agree with what has been written. Openings of this kind are practically useless. In Liszt's Liebestraum, where reference is made to that 12th chord, it is probably a printing error since all the other previous chords, being chords of at most a 10th, are arpeggiated; I don't understand why one with a 12th should not be. Additionally, as Simone has already said, the chances of encountering such openings in piano literature of all time are practically zero.

Even for me, the mere idea of trying to demonstrate, through a sophisticated repertoire, the ability to handle these extreme openings, only makes me think of those who want to show off when, on the contrary, the technical qualities that make a difference in a pianist are recognized by quite different things.

Of course TheSimon, you understood correctly... the more the technical difficulty intensifies, the more the user base is reduced. Surely chord extensions are a strong selection parameter (along with other virtuosities; it's not like everyone can afford the transcendentals... twelfths or no twelfths) and if someone writes a piece entirely in twelfths... probably (today, so as not to offend anyone) they will never have an interpreter

I agree, only on one thing I think differently: extensions are a strong selection parameter that I do not see as being on par with other forms of virtuosity. The Transcendental Etudes are certainly not for everyone, but the technical difficulties impose careful study of piano technique and dedication. In short, if one wants to reach the point of playing the transcendental studies with great effort and dedication, one can get there. In the case of extension, one cannot get there, in the true sense of the word; if the hand doesn't reach, it doesn't reach, and here the selection is not based on the level of effort but on the physiological nature of the hand (as if we were discarding someone just because they are not tall enough), which is why I do not see it as a selection parameter on par with other technical difficulties.

You are right TheSimon, the range is a physical "limit" that on average orbits around the major ninth, with the necessary nuances.

re3 mi4 is one thing, mi3 fa#4 is another, mib3 fa4 is yet another, fa#3 sol#4 is another case altogether, etc. instead, in my opinion, the most extended minor ninth should be a minimum requirement to truly be pianists.

I only think differently on one thing: I am not sure that all the Transcendental Etudes are for everyone; if we consider only pressing the right keys, ok ...but for the rest, effort might not be enough

Frank wrote:

I only disagree on one thing: I am not sure that all transcendentals are for everyone; if we consider only pressing the right keys, okay ...but for the rest, effort might not be enough

I would say exactly so, I think so too, but at least you can manage to press the keys, you put the piece together... But if you have a small hand and you get a piece full of sixteenth notes, you won't play it even if you are the best pianist in the world... Good or not good, if you can't reach it, you can't reach it