Chopin Method

Do you mean the order of the keys?

Hi Sammy, what I know about the Chopin method is what you already know: that he used to start scale studies with the key of B major, as he believed that in this key the hand position was more ergonomic thanks to the use of the 5 black keys. The C major scale was the last one he had students study because he considered it more awkward. From the method written by him, we know that he had scales performed with different accentuations and rhythms, as well as performing the same scales with a single finger (from the 1st to the 5th), this to learn the very personal legato of the great Polish master, who often used to tie two sounds with the same finger, prescribing, in this case, that this be done by letting it fall softly from above with the movement of the wrist and with great softness of the arm and hand, to obtain that expansive pianism and soft gestures. I quote the exact words of the great master Chopin written in his method: "-It is useless to begin studying scales on the piano starting from C, the easiest to read but the most difficult for the hand, having no point of support. Begin with a scale that allows the hand to position itself easily, with long fingers occupying the high keys, such as B major, and arrive gradually at C by descending one key each time... (F. Chopin)" So, dear Sammy, it is Chopin telling you how to do it. Start from B major and descend progressively and chromatically by one key until finally arriving at the key of C major.

Chopin's various students have said that the Maestro had scales played with metronomic regularity and in a full sonority, as legato as possible and very slowly; only gradually was one to move to a faster tempo. The thumb passage had to be facilitated by the correct position of the hand, slightly tilted inwards. Chopin advised daily study of scales and arpeggios, played with rhythmic regularity, giving great importance to the change of accentuation, performed through a light support placed first on the 1st finger, then on the 3rd, then on the 4th. This is what I know about Chopin's method regarding scales. I wish you all the best for your studies.

Aside from quoting GILDA, I am primarily quoting Chopin

GILDA wrote:

"-It is useless to begin studying scales on the piano starting with C major, the easiest to read but the most difficult for the hand, as it has no point of support. Begin with a scale that allows the hand to position itself easily, with the long fingers occupying the high keys, such as G major, and gradually arrive at C major by descending one key each time... ( F. Chopin )"

Thank you Thank you Thank you and thank you again!!!! But can you also tell me something about how and when to use and study the "thumb over"?

Dear Sammy, to facilitate the various thumb passages in scales, Chopin used to start from the key of B major for the right hand, and D-flat major for the left. At first, he would have the hand kept calm, making the notes played in such a way that the sounds were very legato; then he would have them played staccato without worrying much about the thumb passage. One exercise, for example, was as follows:

Right hand:

1st finger on E, 2nd on F#, 3rd on G#, 4th on A#, turn/thumb under to 1st finger on B, 2nd on C#, 3rd on D#, etc.....

Left hand:

4th finger on Gb, 3rd on Ab, 2nd on Bb, 1st on C, turn/thumb under, 3rd finger on Db, 2nd on Eb, 1st on F, etc....

Then one would move on to more difficult scales.

Since every scale has fundamental positions, by playing first legato and then staccato, and then with various accents on the 1st, 3rd, and 4th fingers, the hand acquired familiarity with the various successions of notes to the point of achieving a good thumb passage through muscular action without causing the hand to lose its correct horizontal position. Many of Chopin's students asserted that through this technique one arrived at playing legato very well and performing very difficult and particular passages, typical and revolutionary in Chopin.... such as, for example, passing the thumb beyond the 4th and 5th fingers. Despite the numerous novelties and originalities regarding fingering, Chopin still referred back to the Clementi school. I think it is nevertheless necessary and fundamental to be followed by a good piano teacher, especially regarding the correct position of the hand in the various thumb passages, because talking is one thing and doing is another, and a teacher beside you will help you not to acquire wrong positions. As for the thumb, I know nothing more. bye.

Thanks again!!!

SammyChopin wrote:

But can you also tell me something about how and when to use and study the "thumb under"?

In this topic, Chuan Chang's book was being discussed

http://www.pianoconc...del-pianoforte/

The author himself defines it as follows:

"in the thumb under method, the structure of the thumb is ignored and the thumb is treated like the other four fingers"...."it is necessary in fast and technically difficult passages"

In my opinion, in short, at high speed one can bypass the thumb passage with the lateral movement of the entire hand ... which in itself perhaps isn't even a great novelty, but at least someone has provided a definition

You're talking about the thumb above, right?

Of course

Marta23 wrote:

In this topic, the book by Chuan Chang was being discussed

http://www.pianoconc...del-pianoforte/

The author himself defines it as follows:

"in the thumb-over method, the structure of the thumb is ignored and the thumb is treated like the other four fingers"...."it is necessary in fast and technically difficult passages"

In my opinion, basically, at high speed one can bypass the thumb passage with the lateral movement of the entire hand ... which in itself perhaps isn't even a great novelty, but at least someone has provided a definition

The problem is that I have been downloading the 1st ed. for days but, even though I have given it several readings (though not the whole thing), I have understood very little about how to practice the thumb-over, how to use both methods (over and under) since first he says that both must be used and then that he prefers the almost exclusive use of the over, then I didn't even quite understand the right movements to make to obtain a good result, then I don't understand if it is possible and, if so, how to achieve legato with the thumb-over. But above all, the exact position of the thumb before, after, and during the passage... in short, I understood very little! But if you have read it, could you help me understand it better, or if there is any member of the forum who has read it and perhaps practices it? Thanks anyway

I was writing

Marta23 wrote:

at high speed, the thumb pass can be bypassed with a lateral movement of the entire hand ...

I hoped it was clear

Speed leads you to also use hand displacement which automatically cancels the thumb pass (under or traditional as you wish) because "it wouldn't pass under anything" since, in the meantime, the hand has already moved laterally

If you try it, you will see that it almost seems like the thumb goes over, but instead it is simply its joint... I repeat, a label was given to a fairly well-known and dated technique. In short, the author of the book didn't invent it

Haha yes I know! But I was referring to that book because at the moment, unfortunately, it is the only testimony of this method, which isn't explained badly there but if I had other sources I could experiment with it, deepen my knowledge, and apply it better. Anyway

Forgive me again, but I didn't understand if it is possible to obtain a good legato even with the thumb on top or, given that it is used at speed, is there no need?

SammyChopin wrote:

I'm sorry again, but I didn't understand if it is possible to achieve a good legato even with the thumb on top or, since it is used at speed, is there no need?

Are speed and legato incompatible?

No, I meant to ask if it can be slurred with the thumb on top or maybe the slur is omitted because in speed it isn't heard. ???