Chopin Waltz. Explanation.

If I am not mistaken, in Chopin the appoggiaturas are on the upbeat

To get a good idea, one idea could be to listen to some good recordings.

The pipe can help ...

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PasqualeTivoli wrote:

I would like to know the opinion of the experts on this site regarding the performance method, in Chopin's Waltz No. 64, Op. 2, of measures 4 and 5, and 8 and 9.

The appoggiatura (B) is performed on the downbeat, while the left hand holds the G, then the notes of the right hand (F-A) and those of the left hand (D-G-B#) are performed together, in which the appoggiatura has nibbled half of their value?

Did I say it correctly, or am I wrong?

Hi, first of all you should clarify what «on the downbeat» and «on the upbeat» mean: if you say "the appoggiatura (B) is performed on the downbeat, while the left hand holds the G" you are contradicting yourself, because if the appoggiatura is performed on the G of the left hand it is on the upbeat, whereas it would be on the downbeat if it were performed on the second chord of the measure (D#-G#-B#). That being said, the acciaccatura should be performed on the upbeat, so that on the second beat of the measure there are only the notes of the left hand (D#-G#-B#) together with F#-A of the right hand, which give rise to a wonderful dominant 9th chord in second inversion.

jack wrote:

To get a good idea, one idea could be to listen to some good recordings.

The tube can help ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yHFQcKkIWM

It's not the right Waltz...

The right one is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOcryGEw1NY

Open content (youtube)

Open content (youtube)

You're right Carlos... what an embarrassing fool I was.

While you were diligently explaining the matter ... I was in the back looking for the fragment...

attention, these are acciaccaturas not appoggiaturas, I would say on the upbeat

pa

Hello,

i had made a mistake in indicating G left hand, instead of B.

Perhaps by mistake, in the beat I meant on the second chord of the measure.

To recap, I thought I would execute it this way: (B) in the left hand, (quarter note), F#-G# with the right hand, (after the eighth rest), (B) of the appoggiatura, with the right hand, (fast), which falls on the second beat of the measure, then together F#, A (right hand) simultaneously with D#, G#, B# of the left hand.

In this way, the chord F#, A, right hand, with D#, G#, B#, left hand, loses half of its value, and does not fall on the second beat, but between the second and the third.

Instead, I seemed to understand from your response that the appoggiatura (B) should be executed between the first and the second beat of the measure, then the chord follows on the second beat. In this way, however, the problem arises because between the first and the second beat there is already F#-G# in the right hand.

(I hope I haven't made it too complicated, and I apologize for this).

PasqualeTivoli wrote:

Perhaps by mistake, when I said 'on the beat' I meant on the second chord of the measure.[...]

Instead, it seemed to me to understand from your answer, that the appoggiatura (Yes) should be performed between the first and second movement of the measure [...]

Exactly: it must be performed on the upbeat. Did you listen to Rubinstein? It helps

Thank you for the answer.

When I write with the computer, I make many mistakes. I realized that I wrote Valser instead of waltz.

Forgive me.

One must distinguish between "appoggiatura" and "acciaccatura". Neither is "on the beat" (in battere) nor "off the beat" (in levare): battere and levare refer to the subdivision into intermediate temporal intervals (equal and conventional) of a "measure" or "bar", which is the time interval contained, on the staff, between one vertical barline and the next. The aforementioned intermediate temporal intervals or "movements" are identified and marked with "rhythmic accents" placed at the beginning of the interval itself and of varying intensity, namely "strong", "mezzo forte", and "weak", which the conductor of an orchestra or choir manifests with the gestures of the "battere" (strong accent) and the "levare" (weak accent), respectively. For example, 2/4 time has the first movement with a strong accent and the second movement with a weak accent, thus alternating a battere and a levare; 3/4 time has the first two on the beat (battere) and the third off the beat (levare), ...

Returning to the appoggiatura, it must be performed at the beginning of the movement, therefore stealing its duration from the note it leans on. The acciaccatura, which is distinguished by the presence of a small transverse stroke, must be performed at the end of the movement preceding the note it acciaccates, stealing its duration from the preceding note.

I wanted to point out this interesting website, where one can see the first editions of Chopin's works, which he himself always scrupulously revised. One can see how often they differ from today's! It is not understood why... Especially the pedal indications are precious.

Furthermore, I also suggest the book, fascinating at least for me, "Chopin seen through his students," by J.J. Eigeldinger, Astrolabio ed.

ClaudioBernardino wrote:

One must distinguish between "appoggiatura" and "acciaccatura". Neither is "on the beat" (in battere) nor "off the beat" (in levare): beat and off-beat refer to the subdivision into intermediate time intervals (equal and conventional) of a "measure" or "bar", which is the time interval contained, on the staff, between one vertical barline and the next. The aforementioned intermediate time intervals or "movements" are identified and marked with "rhythmic accents" placed at the beginning of the interval itself and of varying intensity, namely "strong", "mezzo forte", and "weak", which the conductor of an orchestra or choir manifests with the gestures, respectively, of the "beat" (strong accent) and the "off-beat" (weak accent). For example, 2/4 time has the first movement with a strong accent and the second movement with a weak accent, thus alternating a beat and an off-beat; 3/4 time has the first two on the beat and the third on the off-beat, ...

s it is conventionally said that an acciaccatura is performed "on the beat" or "off the beat" depending on whether it is on the movement (whatever it may be within the measure) or precedes it; anyway, thanks for the quick theory review

PasqualeTivoli wrote:

Thank you for the response.

When I write with the computer, I make many mistakes. I realized that I wrote Valser instead of waltz.

Forgive me.

Don't worry, I promptly corrected it