sorry, I would like to ask you for some information..
is the diminished 7th chord a 5th species chord and is it found only on the VII degree of the harmonic minor scale?
Between handouts, notes, and books there are contradictions; let me explain better: one says that the diminished seventh chord can be placed on the VII degree of the minor mode and on the VII degree of the major mode, while another says that it can also be placed on the augmented 4th degree of the minor scale as a leading tone to the dominant, which is a tonicization (VII)V, and on the augmented 4th degree of the major scale.
i am a bit confused about this, can you please help me?
thanks everyone
N
Natan
Member
Reply 2 by Natan
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239
I didn't understand the doubt, in D minor the raised fourth is F#, so the resulting four-note chord will be F# A C Eb, precisely the incriminated chord.
2. on the seventh of the major scale by lowering the sixth degree (borrowed chord from the minor)
3. on every secondary leading tone (so also, but not limited to, on the raised fourth... in major on the raised first/second/fourth/fifth, on the third if it tends toward the fourth; in minor on the raised third/fourth; on the second if it tends toward the third with a major triad, on the raised sixth if it tends toward the seventh with a major triad; optionally also on the raised first which resolves to the second with a minor triad).
Then there are particular uses such as diminished false sevenths that arise from chromatics of other chords: e.g., in C major D#-F#-A-C which resolves to E-G-C, or F#-A-C-D# which resolves to G-C-E.
2. on the seventh of the major scale by lowering the sixth degree (borrowed chord from the minor)
3. on every secondary leading tone (so also, but not limited to, on the raised fourth... in major on the raised first/second/fourth/fifth, on the third if it tends toward the fourth; in minor on the raised third/fourth; on the second if it tends toward the third with a major triad, on the raised sixth if it tends toward the seventh with a major triad; also potentially on the raised first which resolves to the second with a minor triad).
Then there are particular uses such as diminished false sevenths that arise from chromaticisms of other chords: e.g., in C major, D#-F#-A-C which resolves to E-G-C, or F#-A-C-D# which resolves to G-C-E.
It fits in all these places! wow! I had only understood on the VII degree of the minor scale (melodic and harmonic) and on the augmented (or excessive) fourth degree of minor/major scales, at least that's what my notes say, but there is so much confusion...
Can I ask you what a secondary leading tone is? How do I derive it?
I didn't understand the doubt; in D minor, the raised fourth is F#, so the resulting four-note chord will be F# A C Eb, which is indeed the problematic chord.
si thanks, in fact if I take the diminished seventh chord B - D - F - Ab (of the C Major or C minor scale, for example) I can also place it in F Major and in F minor, because on the augmented 4th degree of F major or F minor I find the same chord B - D - F - Ab.. am I correct?
for example, you also find it on the VII of the "harmonic major", or on the I of the "ultralocrian", on the III of the "phrygian dominant", on the V of the "augmented ionian" etc. etc....
Go back and review the scheme I suggested to you in the other post and you can find the rest on your own
Instead, if you are interested in how this type of chord appeared and how it was used in the past... that is another story....
The confusion and contradictions you indicate stem, as always, precisely from this mixture.....
for example, you also find it on the VII of the "harmonic major", or on the I of the "ultralocrian", on the III of the "phrygian dominant", on the V of the "augmented ionian" etc. etc....
Go back and review the scheme I suggested to you in the other post and you can find the rest on your own
Instead, if you are interested in how this type of chord appeared and how it was used in the past... that is another story....
The confusion and contradictions you indicate stem, as always, precisely from this mixture.....
it is found everywhere!! unfortunately I don't know these scales but I imagine it must be an important chord to be so present!!
It fits into all these places! wow! I had only understood regarding the VII degree of the minor scale (melodic and harmonic) and on the augmented (or excessive) fourth degree of minor/major scales, at least that's what my notes say, but there is so much confusion...
Can I ask you what a secondary leading tone is? How do I derive it?
Thanks a lot for the help!!
do you remember the construction of secondary sevenths? V of V, V of VI etc.? The third of every secondary seventh becomes a secondary leading tone of the temporary I degree.
Example: in C, the V of V is D7; the F# (third of D7) functions as the leading tone of G, the temporary I.
In the same way, if you have V of VI, i.e., E7 going to Am, the G# becomes the leading tone of Am...
V of II, A7 going to Dm, the C# is the leading tone etc.
if the first one also applies to Cm, Ebm and F#m, it's because the B in the G# - B - D - F chord is the leading tone of Cm, just as D is the leading tone of Ebm and F will be the leading tone of F#m...etc... thanks!
1) the diminished 7th chord is built on the leading tone (it's not the only possibility but still...)
2) what are the leading tones of C, Eb, F#, and A? B, D, F, and G#, which means as Bianca says, if you consider the enharmonic possibilities with the same diminished chord, you have four leading tone chords...
3) same thing for C#, E, G, and Bb - D, F, Ab, and B
if the first one also applies to Dm, Ebm and F#m, it's because the B in the G# - B - D - F chord is the leading tone of Dm, just as D is the leading tone of Ebm and F will be the leading tone of F#m etc thanks!
exactly, we overlapped in the answer... one small point, it's not the leading tone of F#, but E#"}
do you remember the construction of secondary sevenths? V of V, V of VI etc.? The third of every secondary seventh becomes a secondary leading tone of the temporary I degree.
Example: in C, the V of V is D7; the F# (third of D7) functions as the leading tone of G, the temporary I.
In the same way, if you have V of VI, i.e., E7 going to Am, the G# becomes the leading tone of Am...
V of II, A7 going to Dm, the C# is the leading tone etc.
i remember the reconstruction of secondary dominants, but I'm probably getting confused, I'll review them now
