Tuning

DIY tuning

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Started by

crystalpiano

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Opening post by crystalpiano

Posts
24
City
treviso

Good evening everyone, I am a forty-year-old former piano student.

I stopped at the threshold of the 5th [grade] but now I would like to dust off the instrument.

I own a Yamaha upright piano from the '80s with the action in good condition.

The peculiarity of this Yamaha is that the last 23 high notes are without

dampers and therefore always vibrate freely, and even though it has the standard

tuning pins, there is very little space to insert a wedge

between the strings without the wedge obstructing the hammers.

Anyway, measuring the height of the high notes with an inexpensive digital tuner

that measures cents, they appear to spike from 0 up to +20

as per the Railsback curve, so I assume that the last two octaves

have remained unchanged since the last tuning.

I wanted to get familiar with the tuning pins, so I did an initial tuning

setting the middle octave at 0 cents at 440 for every note and then applying it

via harmonics across the entire keyboard except for the last two high octaves.

The result is that the piano is playable but not exciting, not convincing, not moving,

and irregularities can be heard, especially in the low-mid range.

So I decided to try an aural tuning following a guide found on the internet.

Here, multiple doubts and questions arise which, in the eyes of an expert, might

border on the nonsensical, but I will nonetheless try to present them to you in an orderly fashion:

1) I start with the fourth A3 - D4. I read in the guide:

"Fourths should be tuned ascending, with one beat per second, making

it so that the higher note is sharp and the lower note is flat"

What does this mean ??? That I have to raise the D4 by a few cents and lower

the A3 which I had previously perfectly tuned with the tuning fork?

2) I seem to hear a beat of one second, but it is only

a vague impression. An acoustic illusion? How do I know

when the fourth is properly regulated?

3) I move on to the fifth G3 - D4. I read in the guide:

"Fifths should be tuned descending, with 3 beats every 5 seconds, making

it so that the higher note is flat and the lower note is sharp"

But how ??? If the highest is the D4 which I have just fixed and cannot touch,

so what do I do? Do I raise the G3 by a larger amount?

4) Are the beats of the fourths and fifths only heard once the result is achieved, or

would they be heard anyway even if they were regulated mathematically at -0+ cents?

5) The beats of the third F3 - A3 should be 7 per second, increasing

by 0.5 every semitone. But how does one measure by ear that they are 7 per second?

In any case, I don't hear these at all, not even the impression of them. Instead, I feel a

vibration in my fingers if I keep them pressed against the keys, especially on the third Bb2 - D3.

6) If I were to measure with the tuner the notes from F3 to F4 after the aural tuning,

aware that pianos differ from one another, on average what deviation

would the twelve measured notes have from -0+ in cents?

7) If instead I tuned by fifths using the second harmonic, what would happen?

I thank in advance anyone who can give me some tips on this DIY tuning.

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Reply 2 by Francesca

Posts
22
City
roma

I believe that one of the few things that cannot be done by oneself without study, experience, and years of application is tuning itself; but that is certainly just my opinion. Even just being surprised by the absence of dampers on the highest octaves denotes "ignorance" (put in quotes because I absolutely do not want to be rude or offensive; I am using the term in its strict literal sense of being ignorant of the subject) of piano construction. I appreciate your commitment, which does you credit, but I would advise you to make use of the professionalism of a good tuner who might also advise you on some regulation work to optimize your instrument. You could then also have a profitable exchange of knowledge and insights with said professional, which could enrich your culture in the matter.

Anyway, my compliments to you for the dedication and the right curiosity that you have applied to your instrument; many pianists have never even opened it.

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Reply 3 by crystalpiano

Posts
24
City
treviso

Goodness, what an embarrassment... I could sink into the ground... luckily I didn't include my first and last name.

In my life, I have only ever been in the company of a single piano, and I thought it was an economy version with fewer dampers.

If I had known that all pianos are like this, I wouldn't have spent my life wishing for other pianos.

Anyway, I thank you; I know well that behind everything there is an enormous science, but the fact is that I don't have the money

for a professional, and besides, I would like to tinker a bit on my own by retracing the history of temperaments.

Since I have plenty of time available, I want to destroy this piano with my own hands.

For a while now, I have been researching on the internet. I would even buy a manual if there were any for sale.

I have also installed Entropy, which I will set about trying once I have the microphone.

So, I found Villari's simple guide to aural tuning online.

Don't worry about my piano, then. I just need to untie a few knots and then I'll return
to my experiments without disturbing anyone. I don't expect you to teach me how to tune.

The meaning of 'calante' (falling) and 'crescente' (rising) escapes me. I know 'aumentato' (increased) and 'diminuito' (decreased), but 'calante'
and 'crescente' escape me. Does it refer to a shift of a few cents from the mathematical zero?

Are these beats only perceptible with exact calibration, and do they vanish when moving slightly?

Roughly speaking, from F3 to F4 following aural tuning, what values are obtained? For example: D4 +2 cents, Bb3 -5 cents... etc. etc.

Thanks to whoever can answer these three little questions.

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Reply 4 by pianoexpert

Posts
3,876
City
rocca di papa

Francesca interprets my thought. Tuning well is truly difficult and takes years of experience. Electronic tuners are useful for some jobs, but in my opinion, the ear in certain areas of the instrument is superior. One must deal with inharmonicity. And the instrument does not take it well into account in all areas of the keyboard. Then one must turn and properly fix the pins, otherwise after a few hammer strikes on the string, detuning is guaranteed! Ear and manual dexterity. Not last in taste. A decreasing interval is said to be narrow. An increasing one is said to be wide. Not all of us listen well to decreasing fifths and increasing fourths. It is easier, instead, to listen to the beat frequency of major thirds and sixths. The checks to be performed on intervals are many.

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Reply 5 by crystalpiano

Posts
24
City
treviso

I thank you, it is an honor. So, it seems to me to understand that it is not just a matter of technical-craftsman skill but also of refining

the auditory-perceptual-mental apparatus that is obtained only after years of experience? It's a pity because I would have liked

to learn how to tune the piano by myself. However, I have the impression that people want to keep the secrets of the trade hidden.

Whereas I think that this knowledge should be made available to everyone to preserve it, since the last tuners are

extinguishing like the last shoemakers. For example, if I search on Amazon or eBay for a piano tuning manual, I find nothing.

There are only a few titles online from 1970 that are no longer available or are lost in some municipal library. If someone can recommend

a manual that is easy to understand and easy to find, I would thank them because I feel very drawn to this "hobby".

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Reply 6 by Francesca

Posts
22
City
roma

Unfortunately there is little available online, but one can also understand the reason for this due to the motives already mentioned. An interesting book that presupposes some prior knowledge is that of Giovanni Bettin: Steinway & Sons Concert Grand Piano. Manual of regulation, tuning, voicing and setup

In any case, the category of tuners is not becoming extinct, but you are perfectly right to observe that there is a reluctance to spread this discipline. In France and Germany, for example, there are professional schools that provide thorough training and a diploma; here, no. There is only one extracurricular course at the Conservatory of Santa Cecilia in Rome.

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Reply 8 by Thesimon

Posts
4,504
City
Ariccia, RM
crystalpiano wrote:

On 8/10/2019 at 00:36, crystalpiano said:

I thank you, it is an honor. So, it seems to me to understand that it is not just a matter of technical-craftsman baggage but also of refining

the auditory-perceptive-mental apparatus that is obtained only after years of experience? It's a pity because I would have liked

to learn how to tune the piano by myself. However, I have the impression that people want to keep the secrets of the trade hidden.

Whereas I think that this knowledge should be made available to everyone in order to preserve it, since the last tuners are

extinguishing like the last shoemakers. For example, if I search on Amazon or eBay for a piano tuning manual, I find nothing.

There are only a few titles online from 1970 that are no longer available or are lost in some municipal library. If anyone can recommend

a manual that is easy to understand and easy to find, I would thank them because I feel very drawn to this "hobby".

I don't think there is an intention to hide the secrets of the trade; otherwise, we wouldn't have opened this forum, where we have also produced a series of video discussions on these topics.

The problem is that there are things that cannot be learned through a video. I can learn how to change my car's brake pads by watching a video on YouTube because there are no aspects involved that have to do with perceptive reality. You cannot learn to tune an instrument online because sensations come into play that have to do with perceptive reality, and if tuners (who are anyway people genetically predisposed for that kind of trade and who certainly have something extra at a perceptive level) take years to learn, there is a reason. This conviction that everything is easy and achievable without effort must be eliminated once and for all. To do things in a certain way, it takes time, dedication, and sacrifice.

Member

Reply 9 by stefano57

Posts
17
City
Arezzo
thesimon wrote:

On 30/10/2019 at 21:17, thesimon said:

I don't believe there is an intention to hide trade secrets; otherwise, we wouldn't have opened this forum, where we have also produced a series of video discussions on these topics.

The problem is that there are things that cannot be learned through a video. I can learn how to change my car's brake pads by watching a video on YouTube because there are no aspects involved that have to do with perceptual reality. You cannot learn how to tune an instrument online because sensations come into play that involve perceptual reality, and if tuners (who are anyway people genetically predisposed to that kind of profession and who certainly have something extra at a perceptual level) take years to learn, there is a reason for it. We must once and for all eliminate this conviction that everything is easy and achievable without effort. To do things in a certain way requires time, dedication, and sacrifice.

I agree. For more than forty years I have been working on pianos, practicing and gathering information from the web or observing the work of professionals, even participating in courses held by AIARP, but I have never encountered such great generosity and willingness to share so-called "secrets" that require great manual dexterity and practice to become effective—qualities that cannot be passed on through words. As previously expressed, I admire Paolo, in particular, and his great desire to disseminate techniques aimed at achieving beauty.

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Reply 10 by pianoexpert

Posts
3,876
City
rocca di papa

Thank you Stefano. As you know, every piano is different and we have to deal with disharmonies that sometimes lead even the most sophisticated tuners astray. The ear, I venture to assert, is a "prince" of recognizing and comparing relative sounds. However, it is true that sometimes not everything can be conveyed through words, at least not without immediate practical demonstration

Member

Reply 11 by francescochopin90

Posts
355
City
.

If you really want to "learn," have your piano tuned by a technician. Over time, the unisons will be the first things to move. Well, you could start by tuning the unisons: I guarantee you it is not simple at all!!! On the high notes, I still can't find the exact point to get the unison without beats (just a micro-movement in this area of the keyboard results in considerable mistuning). On the low notes, it is slightly easier. Stopping the ankles is also quite an achievement: you can only learn to do it by ear. Then you have to take into account the tension of the plate and the thickness of the strings: the Yamaha is very "tight" to guarantee sound volume and clarity on the highs.

In my opinion, a technician capable of tuning by ear will also be good with a tuner; the opposite is not necessarily true. I'll give an example close to me: lately, staplers capable of cutting and saturating have become widespread in the surgical field, very useful for example for cutting or "attaching" viscera to each other. These are very useful instruments for speeding up the operation or for reaching places inaccessible to the hand. But a good surgeon is not one if they don't know how to use needle and thread!!! I think it's the same thing for a tuning technician.

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