Do you know Brian Ferneyhough

New Complexity is the name of the compositional "school" or "movement". The adjective is used somewhat as it is for the New Vienna School, or for New Music (Neue Musik).

The flexible indication mentioned by Frank seems to me an excellent example of British humor. And I don't say this to diminish him: Ferneyhough is certainly a paradigm for late twentieth-century music!

Ars Nova, Neo-Romanticism, New Objectivity (Neue Sachlichkeit) ... here are other examples of artistic "schools" or "movements" that felt the need to be recognized—in their time—as new. Novelty as a value... is an old story! To face New Complexity, there was New Simplicity (Rihm, although I doubt he recognizes or has recognized himself in this label).

Frank wrote:

One thing to be said, however, is that his vision, albeit utopian, is that of enriching the score with the greatest amount of information possible, almost as if to say: "Ok, you want to do rubato, but I want it like this".

I see the issue slightly differently. Ferneyhough's notation is utopian, it's true. It is impossible to perform certain instrumental articulations "precisely," impossible to sight-read certain irregular rhythms "precisely" (quintuplets enclosing triplets enclosing sextuplets...). Ferneyhough's writing proposes an excess of information to the performer. And yet, Ferneyhough does not ask the performer to play "approximately": on the contrary, he demands a sight-reading that is as precise as possible. The performer therefore submits to an impossible task, and the challenge in facing this impossibility (and the tension and, I would even say, the stress connected to it) are part of the compositional game.

I suggest two other listens: Carceri d'invenzione III (1985), part of one of Ferneyhough's most famous—and paradigmatic, even from the title—cycles; and Unity Capsule, for solo flute (the video of Matteo Cesari's performance highlights a rather high-tech side of the composition).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCaOfEax8MM

Open content (youtube)

Open content (youtube)

I don't know Ferneyhough very well, actually, but from some readings "I knew him" as RedScharlach describes. Ferneyhough's scores are hyper-complex but take into consideration the idea that the performer may not be able to follow them entirely. I don't want to venture any other considerations; I have listened to almost nothing by Ferneyhough (who has written much more than what is normally played, there is even an opera...) and I have never read his essays or statements on aesthetics. But his remains an interesting experimentation.

beyond aesthetic choices, notation, complexity etc etc (some of which are a bit obsolete today, for that matter...) Carceri d'invenzione remains a truly stupendous cycle of works!

micamahler wrote:

I wrote "new" complexity because that is how this movement is called

To me, at a syntactic level, it seems exactly the same as structuralism; from what I have read, in fact, these authors are categorized among the post-structuralists... a bit like the neo-classicists in other fields

In my opinion, the real novelty is indeed linked to notation; for the rest (at least the first piece), it is almost unlistenable. I understand that someone had to deal with this subject, so all welcome.

RedScharlach wrote:

And yet Ferneyhough does not ask the performer to play "approximately"

Excuse the euphemism, but this is called "mental masturbation." If you know that it is humanly impossible (and it is; I would like to see you sight-read irregular groupings here) ... there is no point in writing it. Therefore, I think Frank is right: "utopian" is already an abundant adjective

Ah, I forgot, the compositional game has always proposed music at the limit of the executable. In theory, there is never a limit to difficulty... if solutions are provided. What is the solution?

Sorry for the absence ...I am reading and listening

For Dino see attachment

Can't attachments be deleted anymore? I ruined the surprise, I attached the wrong file... I wanted to put a fake one with Ferneyhough written on it

but beyond the theories, the performance difficulties and the compositional techniques... doesn't this music communicate a great elegance to you? it does to me...

Elegance?

Destroyed wrote:

Eleganza?

si. tipicamente inglese...

If you see it, you should be able to describe this "elegance"... would you do me this favor?

I was also thinking of a parallelism with authors like Handel, John Field, Elgar, etc.

Destroyed wrote:

If you see it, you should be able to describe this "elegance"... would you do me this courtesy?

it's not that feelings are demonstrated. either you see it or you don't.

to try to see it, however, you can listen to other similar music, make comparisons with other related authors, follow the score, try to understand the meaning of what the composer wrote etc etc

to me, considering all the premises with which this music was written, what impresses most

is precisely this absolute elegance, composure... precisely typically English.

perhaps listening to a score by Adriano Guarnieri first and then one by Ferneyhough can highlight the characteristics of both.

i believe it is all a matter of refining our sensitivity.

naturally, "cold" analyses also help with this...

Tiger wrote:

But can't attachments be deleted anymore? I ruined the surprise, I attached the wrong file... I wanted to put a fake one with Ferneyhough written on it

Something like this?

http://www.nuthing.eu/2013/01/nuova-pedagogia-musicale-1.html

scelsi wrote:

sensations aren't something you demonstrate. either you see it or you don't.

If I may butt in, sensations are the most subjective thing in the world. Therefore, I find it right to define what English elegance is and which are the distinctive traits that make this piece adhere to that model.

Otherwise, I hear something Russian... French... German... etc.

That is, I'm glad you get this sensation, of course... but it ends there; frankly, it could even trigger a laxative sensation for me... but I'll keep that to myself, because if I were to declare it, I would then have to try to explain why... and not just: "either you feel it... or you don't feel it".

Said this by someone who doesn't count for much.... but who wants to understand

Choose it, live it as a study. Strive to describe the sensations of your listening. This too is analysis.

Dino wrote:

Excuse the euphemism, but this is called "mental masturbation." If you know it is humanly impossible (and it is; I would like to see you sight-read irregular groups here) ... there is no point in writing it. Therefore, I think Frank is right: "utopian" is already an abundant adjective.

I disagree, because Ferneyhough's compositional thought is identified with his notation. Can one transcribe Ferneyhough's music using a simplified notation and obtain the same sonic result? I believe so. And yet, his thought would end up being distorted, since it is based precisely on the relationship created between the notation and the performer (On Stellar Magnitudes, for mezzo-soprano and five instruments, 1994, at the first measure carries the indication «Tense and uneasy, as if trying to make sense out of chaos»).

That being said, one can be in favor of Ferneyhough's compositional thought (for example with Donatoni, who also developed a poetics and technique at the opposite poles) or against it (for example with Sciarrino).

Scelsi cited Adriano Guarnieri, and rightly so: I have the impression that Guarnieri is in some ways comparable to Ferneyhough (notation as excess, notation as utopia) even while starting from different premises and reaching results that are almost antithetical on an aesthetic level.

I meant exactly this. Both Guarnieri and Ferneyhough start from the same premises but arrive at very different expressive outcomes. A cross-listening of theirs highlights the characteristics of both (in my opinion, a very British elegance for Ferneyhough and for Guarnieri instead... a heap of rubbish?! eheh). Furthermore, in this way, one can also observe the expressive potential of this language, which today may be obsolete perhaps, but it has had its value, and not a little. anyway, there are many other composers, perhaps less known but equally interesting, who participated in the development of this language.

it is not trivial that a musical language in the post-war period is common to several composers without one being a bad copy of the other. And, from a certain point of view, this is also an added value of this very language. Think, for example, of Sciarrino's language: inimitable, if one even attempts to use it, one ends up becoming "a bad copy of...". In short, the exact opposite: a highly personal vocabulary for Sciarrino, whereas for Ferneyhough...

sincerely, I wouldn't know how to better explain this sensation of "elegance" that I am talking about. how do you communicate the sense of "saltiness"...? ehehe, but with some effort, perhaps one can succeed.

moreover, I also find an approach to contemporary music based on the "sensations", "emotions", "affects" or impressions it evokes interesting... if not for the fact that it is something that is never done. there is a sort of latent conviction in everyone that this "affective" side is simply absent. and that doesn't seem entirely accurate to me...

this without taking anything away from the more rational and "cold" analyses, which in fact often constitute the gateway to this more emotional or affective side...

@silberman you could even say that sweet is spicy, that bitter is salty etc etc. of course, maximum freedom of expression. but this does not mean that it is necessarily right. there also exists, within certain limits, an objectivity of "affects". so if one interprets Beethoven's Eroica as buffa and The Barber of Seville as tragic... unless there is some hidden provocative meaning in this... we might even unanimously consider these statements to be erroneous.

scelsi wrote:

and for guarnieri instead... a landslide of garbage?! eheh

anyway ... you could have spared us that one!

RedScharlach wrote:

anyway ... you could have spared us this one!

well if you've seen another Guarnieri score, you know what I mean... it's not exactly refinement mid-1700s Viennese...