Having an acoustic piano appraised

martinamoon wrote:

Hi everyone, I am looking for an acoustic piano because I want to abandon my digital one.

A seller near Florence has offered me, for a little more, about 6300 euros, a baby grand, specifically a 1986 Yamaha G1 with the possibility of installing a silent system.

The piano is very well maintained; strings, cabinet, internals, hammers, keys, and pedals are in excellent condition. The seller says he acquired it from a family whose child practically never played it. I tried the piano and I like the sound, but I am less convinced by the touch and technique: it seems rather hard to me and I cannot be agile, although it is more a matter of weight than a matter of response; it seems to me that the piano is not very responsive.

The seller keeps telling me that it's a bargain and that it's my fault because I am used to a digital, and that the fact that it is a bit hard is a good thing because it means it has been played little and the keys haven't softened yet, and moreover, it is an advantage for practice.

At this moment, not having a teacher to bring along, I tried to contact a technician, who told me that what I proposed to him is incorrect since he works for the competition, so he will not come to the shop.

At this point, I don't know what to do...

If you have any suggestions.

Thank you

Try contacting another technician; going with your own trusted technician to see a piano you intend to buy in a shop is quite common. To understand if the problem is yours or the piano's, you could try others; it is possible that you might feel uncomfortable on a slightly tiring keyboard if you always and only play on digital, but this only applies if you feel uncomfortable on all pianos.

If you have the feeling that the keyboard is tiring during rapid passages (on a G1 [sic - original says G2] it also seems strange to me), it could be true that it has been played little....but without seeing it, one can only make hypotheses and lots of chatter....

the main advice is to trust your instinct above all, because if there isn't feeling right away, there is no point in insisting with an instrument; you risk remaining unsatisfied forever and facing a series of sometimes useless and non-resolving interventions, regardless of what the technician says - pins, adjustments, hammer preparation etc... which can improve the instrument but also might not, in exchange for a non-negligible expense (the expense is certain, the result is not).

6000 euros might make sense for an instrument like this if it is truly ready to give its best and if it is satisfying for you as it is; if you have to spend more money afterwards, forget it. Today, with a thousand euros more, you can even find a better instrument.

Hi Martina and welcome to Pianoconcerto.

I read from your post that you like the sound but are not convinced by the mechanical response of that piano.

The acoustic feeling between pianist and piano is very important.

Of course, the mechanics are also very important because they make the pianist feel "safe" during performance, guaranteeing reliability even in fast passages.

My advice is to verify the friction coefficients through a competent technician.

The lack of agility in the mechanics you are talking about could also be a consequence of poor regulation.

Good luck!

I agree with James. Check the frictions!!! For the rest, a good regulation and tuning.

But excuse me, this girl has to make a choice! She can't just take the piano home to perform adjustments and checks later..... and she can't even ask a technician to disassemble a mechanism to check the strength of the pins at a dealer's! She can ask for decent advice from an expert, that much is true, who by pressing two keys can realize if the piano has problems.

I don't know what you are used to, in my opinion, a piano in a shop is evaluated like this: it either works or it doesn't, and if it doesn't work, you move on to something else without too much talk, even out of respect for the dealer.

And then you kill me with these friction coefficients; every time someone intervenes, that always seems to be the problem. Also because then I would like to see you at work defining them on every sliding point of the mechanism or on the pins (I mean the friction coefficients)..... in short, I am a bit less for professor-style theory and more for practice, also because if we want to speak in scientific terms, appropriate technical terminology must be used! (Friction force, resistance, weight, sliding friction coefficient, dynamic static are all different things from each other)

Anyway, no technician I know of (and I know quite a few, some are even highly regarded dealers for n generations) has ever gone around evaluating pianos with a dynamometer.....

i don't know if I explained myself clearly.

It could also be that they installed a new, heavier hammer rail and therefore the friction increases for that reason, but these are things an expert can see by eye without a gauge or a scale....in my opinion, if Martina called a technician and told him to go to 'so-and-so's' shop to check the friction, he would have a good laugh! But that is just my opinion, to be clear.

Hi, thanks for the answers!

I called two technicians from my area and they did not accept the proposal to go see the piano from the seller, telling me that what I am asking of them is incorrect and that they should ask the seller (who is himself a technician) to disassemble the action.

I contacted a friend of mine who is a pianist much more experienced than me; I have decided that I will bring him, so he will be able to give me good advice.

Thank you

I would like to see who the technician (by profession) is that goes and dismantles the action at another technician's house....

I'll take this opportunity to ask you two more questions:

- is a room of 16 square meters, 3 meters high, suitable for a G1?

- if someone like me also has to play in the evening, is it worth spending 2000 euros more to install a silent Genio Premium on the G1, or would it be better to consider an upright with the silent system already installed?

Thank you very much

@Fra

I will preface this by saying that I am speaking here in my capacity as an administrator; therefore, I will avoid mentioning my personal opinions regarding this matter, which I will instead highlight in a second post as a user...

[ADMIN ON]

This is not the first time I have received complaints via private mail, or phone calls on my mobile, from people complaining about your excessive energy in responses that border on irreverence toward qualified technicians recognized by competent bodies—people who have made a living from this sector, who have deepened their knowledge by visiting factories, attending courses abroad organized by the best manufacturers, and who can ultimately boast several thousand interventions under their belt. Despite the fact that I haven't been frequenting the forum very often lately, I find myself decidedly forced to intervene in light of the pressure received and also because I am the only one with the privileges to decree a ban or the suspension of a user. To be honest, for some time now we have been adopting a much more democratic approach, discussing the "fates" of users privately with all other staff members.

I have already received pressure in other contexts and I have tried to redirect those requesting a ban toward an approach more aimed at peaceful confrontation, but here things are starting to get exaggerated and we cannot tolerate such attitudes. One cannot come onto a forum and blast one of the great hammer action manufacturers without ever having visited their factory to see the high standards adopted by them in the production processes. Saying that a brand of hammers is worthless because you don't like the sound is a phrase very poor in content and opens the door to other doubts. For example, if I were a user, I could object to the fact that perhaps the hammer action doesn't sound good because you weren't able to prepare it as art requires, or that the taste of an instrument's timbre is subjective... Just to find some differing but at the same time valid points of view. Therefore, honestly, I really don't understand what cards you have to show us to support this pomposity you flaunt in your posts. Besides, you were the one who said in another post that Giovanni Bettin installed an Abel hammer action on one of his Steinway Ds, and Bettin does not seem like a newcomer when it comes to piano technicians. He is a Steinway technician and has also written a fine book that I have had the opportunity to read and appreciate. Setting aside these somewhat personal considerations—since some are mine and others are copied from the "complainants"—I must say that these attitudes could also compromise the image of the forum and, ultimately, could even cause legal problems for me, as I am the owner of this domain and thus responsible for what is said here. Obviously, I do not want to risk a lawsuit because of someone who does not respect netiquette rules. Giving personal opinions is fine, but at this point, given the attacks and especially the tone of these attacks, I ask you to qualify yourself: say who you are, whether you do this work professionally or if you are a simple enthusiast, whether you have any credentials; otherwise, understand for yourself that blasting everything has little value... Being Carlo Rubia and addressing the scientific community saying: "energy is produced with this system and not with that one" carries weight... Being an unknown and simple enthusiast of physics or energy engineering who has read a couple of books and seen something here and there, and throwing out phrases that, rather than aiming to express a point of view, given the tone, seem instead tending to ridicule those who have made this activity their profession—so, 'gratuitously,' without apparently having any kind of credential to play to your advantage—with respectfully speaking, I believe it carries no weight at all and instead only causes FRICTION, just to stay on theme...

For the umpteenth time, I have asked to wait, also in relation to the type of response you will give me to THIS message, but as I repeat to you, decisions are made democratically, and if at the next meeting the majority deliberates removal, there is nothing I can do.

Regards

[ADMIN OFF]

In this post, instead, I will speak as a user and discuss my perplexities.

Since I must speak about the piano mechanics, which represent the engine of the instrument, I will take pleasure in comparing the piano to a machine, and specifically the transmission mechanics to the engine.

Let's clarify immediately that since one has to buy a used piano, the aforementioned rule implies that, by comparison, we are going to a used car dealership to buy our car.

Cars, like pianos, have a certain market; therefore, we know that a certain model of car, from a certain year, will have a certain valuation that may vary based on the condition of the bodywork and the mileage.

Fra wrote:

But excuse me, this girl has to make a choice! She can't exactly take the piano home to perform adjustments and checks later.....and she can't even ask a technician to disassemble a mechanism to verify the resistance of the pins at a dealer! She can ask for decent advice from an expert, that I agree, who by pressing two keys can realize if the piano has problems.

Obviously, she cannot take the car home and then have the cylinder head disassembled to verify with a dial indicator the wear status of the pistons relative to the tolerances imposed by the manufacturer on the cylinders!! But verifying the state of an engine, or rather, verifying that the vehicle's mileage is what is declared, does not necessarily require removing the timing belt and proceeding to disassemble the cylinder head; there are other methods that allow us to say if the mileage is correct just by removing a screw, for example, removing the EGR valve manifold and evaluating its condition. Or evaluating the wear status of the leather steering wheel... etc. etc. It seems to me that the example is apt; after all, extracting the mechanism from the board and removing a screw to disassemble a lever to measure its "FRICTION FORCE" (that is, the force measured under static conditions which decreases in the dynamic case, being equal and opposite, always within the limits of existence of the static case, to that which would generate the object's motion, obviously in relation to its dimensional constraints, just to use scientific terminology), is not much more demanding than opening the car hood, taking a screwdriver, and removing a screw to be able to examine the valve.

Coming to the impossibility of contacting a mechanic to have them come and disassemble an EGR valve... I don't see why one cannot ask for it. The fact that a mechanic is selling me a car is no guarantee that the car is in perfect condition and does not hide flaws, and since I have to spend money, I want the assurance from my trusted mechanic that I am not being ripped off. In the end, I am the one taking the money out of my pocket, and if a seller is acting in good faith and has nothing to fear, they shouldn't have much trouble opening the hood and letting me remove a clip... I'm not disassembling the whole engine!!

A little later you write...

Fra wrote:

And then you kill me with these coefficients of friction; every time someone intervenes, that always seems to be the problem. Also because, if I may, I would like to see you at work defining them on every sliding point of the mechanism or on the pins (I mean the friction coefficients).....in short, I am a bit less for professor-style theory and more for practice, also because if one wants to speak in scientific terms, appropriate technical terminology must be used! (Friction force, resistance, weight, sliding friction coefficient, dynamic static are all different things from each other)

Normally, if a car becomes less responsive over time, struggles uphill, and emits a bit of smoke, it is usually because the engine is aging, losing compression, and the most banal thing to do is replace it with a new one, or take it to a machine shop to redo valves, valve seats, valve guides, lapping or boring the cylinder liners and thus reboring the cylinders, polishing the passages, new pistons or at least new rings and piston rings, or the alternative is to settle for having an engine that runs less and emits a bit of smoke.

In the case of the piano, the woods are the same, the components are the same, and if the keyboard doesn't move well and feels sluggish, it is usually due to friction. "And yet that always seems to be the problem"... Perhaps because it is? What should technicians say? That it's because of the greasy hands of the neighbor's child who comes there to play with the piano after eating pizza?

Before minimizing the work of technicians with this sentence you wrote, which I am quoting back to you, I would like to make you aware of the existence of an object...

Also because, if I may, I would like to see you at work defining them on"}

every sliding point of the action or on the pins

To measure the friction of the action, there is a nice little gadget that measures friction in a submultiple of KgF, the gram-force, and obviously we can also express this force in Newtons (according to Newton's second law). In any case, knowing that static friction is greater than dynamic friction, one places the end of the hammer flange on a lever of this instrument and lowers it until the flange no longer rotates around its center pin. The amount of friction in grams is then read on the display; it will obviously be the value relative to the static friction. In pianos, friction must always be compatible with the manufacturer's data, otherwise the keyboard becomes more sluggish. Measuring the friction of all the components having a center pin of a randomly selected key does not take more than 30 or 40 seconds once the action has been removed from the case. It then remains to verify the condition of the keybeds and other parts covered in leather, cashmere, graphite... Shall we say 30 seconds? Let's do it for 5 keys taken at random from the 88 of the piano and we have lost 5 minutes to verify the "physiological" state of the action and its friction. It is more or less the time spent checking components that we can examine on the fly under a car hood to get indications about the state of the engine.

In the following posts write:

Fra wrote:

in my opinion, if Martina called a technician and told him to go to "so-and-so's" shop to check the friction, he would have a good laugh! But that is just my opinion, let it be clear.

e

Fra wrote:

I would like to see who the technician (by profession) is that goes to disassemble the action at another technician's house....

You might find it funny, but I call this professionalism... Ideally, the technician who comes to analyze an instrument I am going to buy will come to me paid, or if they are not paid, they will anyway be hired as a technician to maintain my piano, and the professional must act like a professional... Are we joking?

If a client came to me requesting my professional opinion on software programmed by other colleagues of mine, and I were paid to express and draft my consultancy, that would be part of my job and my professionalism, and I must express an objective point of view because I AM PAID TO DO IT. If it were not so, the discussion would not be so different from what we did in another topic about Teo Mammuccari canceling the evening a few minutes before its start because there are few people... In this case, we choose not to check a piano even if they pay us, just because the retailer is also a technician... So what? In both cases, little professionalism. For me, you can be Saint Peter himself, but before spending 6000 euros, it is my right to make sure I am not getting ripped off.

To ponder...

But I certainly agree with Simone. One can, with tact and kindness, bring along one's own trusted technician or at most another pianist friend to examine these problems. This is because it can happen, in my opinion, that when trying a piano in a shop, one judges it satisfactory in some aspects and not in others. Perhaps, with a modest amount of work that the seller is not willing to do, the instrument could, for example, function better. The price can help us evaluate the convenience of addressing these deficiencies in the instrument, if possible. Therefore, the presence of the Technician is fundamental to evaluating the cost of a potential short-term intervention and that of other interventions due in the future. (see my video Tutorial on scheduled piano maintenance... provided it has already been edited... otherwise it's about to come out!!!)

So Martinamoon, it is your right not to abandon the idea of purchasing the piano that you "feel is yours," if that is the case, following assistance from someone truly competent... and polite with the seller, in respect of their ideas and their "sales formulas"

Hi, I'm sorry that my post generated a bit of controversy.

During the week, I will go with an experienced pianist to see the piano; let's see if he can give me some tips.

If that is not the case, I will try to contact some other technician.

I also have other doubts regarding the silent system.

To avoid confusion, I have opened another post in which I ask for clarifications...

If you want to take a look at it, it's here:

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/3805-dubbi-su-installazione-del-sistema-silent-su-un-coda/

Thanks a lot to everyone!

I apologize for responding late to this discussion, but having recently joined, I could not have done otherwise...... I hope that my simple response, if feasible, can also be of help to those who in the future find themselves with the same questions.

First of all, compliments to everyone...... this Forum is a small encyclopedia.......

I should preface that I am inexperienced, both as a pianist and as a technician......

One solution could be, given the expense to be incurred—6000 Euros are certainly not little—to ask if the seller also offers a rental service; almost all sellers offer this service, so find out if it is possible to rent the piano for a minimum period, for example 3 / 6 months, at the end of which, if we are not satisfied with the instrument, we return it and look for another instrument, having only lost the rental fee; otherwise, if the instrument satisfies us, agree on the purchase by deducting the rental expense....... for example, if the value of the PF is €6000 and the rental is €300, in case the instrument satisfies us, we pay the remaining €5700...... but if the instrument does not live up to expectations, we will have only spent €300 without having an instrument that does not satisfy us on our shoulders....