home recording with grand piano

the first photo is of a different microphone placement compared to the one I used for the two tests included here, namely the two Rode mics in AB on the piano lid and two Schoeps in AB but further apart....result: sound too defined...less ambience and timbre too modern. Attempt abandoned.

So... In order, here is what's wrong.

1) Capsules are too far apart. The AB technique ranges from 30 centimeters to 1 meter, 1.5 meters maximum if you are recording a grand piano from a good distance. If you want good stereophony, considering the dimensions of the room, I would say stick to 80 centimeters or one meter.

2) In the AB technique, the capsules are parallel.

3) The capsule of the left microphone points at the strings immediately after the hammers' strike point; the right capsule points at the intersection with the bass strings at about 2/3 of the length of the soundboard.

4) Never position microphones in the immediate vicinity of corners (where important physical events occur: reflections, bass buildup, etc.). Sacrifice the distance from the piano slightly if necessary, but do not go as far as putting the microphones in the corner.

5) The microphone placed at the tail must be a large-diaphragm one. If you have to use a small capsule, it's better not to use it for the time being.

6) The large-diaphragm capsule can be placed either with the capsule pointing at the intersection of the bass strings or directly under the piano, pointing towards the center of the soundboard.

7) Personally, when talking about recordings with one or more microphones, I prefer to treat all tracks as mono tracks... A stereo signal cannot come out of a single microphone. Stereophony is something you must create within the DAW. Therefore, it is preferable to treat all tracks as mono.

8) I don't know Cubase very well, but it seems to me that you did it... Watch the PANs. In stereo techniques, the signal from the left microphone must be panned fully left and the right one fully right.

9) During the mixing phase, the microphone at the tail of the piano must be mixed skillfully with a phase correlator at hand. That signal is only used to resolve phase problems following the application of filters and plugins: reverb, stereo enhancer, spreader, etc.

10) Be careful to regulate the mic PREAMPS very well! In the second file you sent regarding the fortissimo, it goes into CLIP several times, which means the signal is too high.... How to regulate the preamp gain? Record and play very strong chords, beyond what you might ever actually play. If the signal clips, lower it slightly; otherwise, raise it slightly. This procedure is also important to take advantage of the maximum number of conversion bits from the converters.

11) It would also be advisable not to have the piano parallel to the wall, but if that's the space available, you have to make do.

I'm sending you a little diagram... Once you have recorded, send me the stems (completely dry bounces of each microphone), we'll make a MIX draft and see what comes out.

My drawing skills are unworthy, but I hope it is understandable.

....ok.

1) parallel at 90 cm distance from each other. same height. the right one points at the 2/3 mark at the intersection of the strings. the left one [points at] the hammer line. the right one is slightly further forward than the left because the grand piano is slightly oblique relative to the wall.

they are approximately 1.70 m away from the grand piano.

2) I am eliminating the Rode NT5 because of its small diaphragm.... a suitable large capsule one could be the Sennheiser MK8 or an AT 4050 mic... among those with good value for money (?) that do not pale in comparison to the Schoeps and respect the clean and linear timbre. I noticed that, anyway, the one at the tail gives a lot of body to the sound. Now I will wait to try without it and with the two omnidirectional mics positioned better, but out of curiosity I was wondering how much its presence could affect the timbre (especially the bass which, in the case of my grand piano, I feel are deficient). That is, for a good-level recording in a home studio, is their presence worth it given also the limits of the room and the characteristics of the grand piano..... clearly according to you... or is it only needed for technical aspects like phase.

7) so I will only load mono tracks, one for each mic, setting the pan all to the right and all to the left. in effect, it is more logical.

the stems are the tracks that Cubase makes without exporting as waves, right? meaning I have to send you the .cpr files produced with the project?

now I am focusing on the gains... the thing is, I haven't seen or heard any distortion... everything seemed clean to me... this worries me!!!!

nancy wrote:

1) parallel at 90 cm distance from each other. same height. the right one points to the 2/3 mark at the string crossing point. the left one [points to] the hammer line. the right one is slightly further forward than the left because the grand piano is slightly oblique relative to the wall.

they are approximately 1.70 m from the grand piano.

Magnificent!

nancy wrote:

2) I am eliminating the Rode NT5 because with a narrow diaphragm.... an adequate large capsule one could be the Sennheiser MK8 or a mic AT 4050... among those with a good price-quality ratio (?) that do not pale in comparison to the Schoeps and respect the clean and linear timbre. I noticed that anyway, the one at the tail gives a lot of body to the sound. Now I will wait to try without and with the two omnidirectional mics positioned better, but out of curiosity I was wondering how much its presence could affect the timbre (especially the bass which, in the case of my grand piano, I feel are lacking). That is, for a good level recording in a home studio, is their presence worth it given also the limits of the room and the characteristics of the grand piano..... clearly according to you... or is it only needed for technical aspects like phase.

Nancy, it depends... If you feel the bass is lacking, it is likely necessary to send more signal. If you already have good microphones: Charter Oak, Neumann, AKG etc., one uses them [as an accent mic] seeing the strings, otherwise if you have more modest gear, you place it under the piano pointing at the center of the soundboard so you only use it for low frequencies. The thickness of the soundboard down there shields you a little from high frequencies. A microphone that sounds very, very good and doesn't cost much is the CAD Trion 8000. It is a low-budget tube mic that sounds divine. I have used it several times as an accent microphone for the piano and in my opinion, it sounds much better than many top-level microphones that cost an arm and a leg. On Mercatino there is an ex-demo for 300 euros... http://www.mercatinomusicale.com/mm/a_cad-trion-8000-tube-studio-mic-pro_id3698192.html

Here is a demo...

nancy wrote:

stems are the tracks that Cubase makes without exporting as wave, right? I mean, do I have to send you the .cpr files produced with the project?

now I am focusing on the gains... the thing is, I haven't seen or heard any distortion... everything seemed clean to me... this worries me!!!!

No, if you have three microphones, the stems are three, meaning the wave file of each microphone. Having three mono tracks, I expect you will send me three mono files...

Shoeps.L, Shoeps.R, Accent.

On the link you posted to SoundCloud, there is the file "seconda prova" (second rehearsal) that clips. When you are at fortissimo, you hear some

http://www.mercatinomusicale.com/mm/a_cad-trion-8000-tube-studio-mic-pro_id3698192.html

Open content (youtube)

....oh great! hearing it like that, from what I can tell, it sounds very soft and warm....I like it.... (the price too... I'm selling the two NT5s and the H4n...)..it's multi-pattern too..anyway, everything is perfectly clear to me now.

i already imagined I'd have to send you strange things...I can get to wave, but I can't record until I have the little Maritino at home to torture...

I might be interested in the zoom h4n. How much are you selling it for? I need it to make videos of the 5 star movement in Rome, where a friend of mine is an advisor.

Wow !! Nancy, very good! This is the real deal: hilarious comedy, a wonderful piece; I thought by now you had regretted it and given up on letting us listen to something.

As for the miking, I'll only tell you "you wanted the bicycle, and now you have to pedal." Dear Simone does not compromise and that is right; imagine if there weren't someone like him to give you advice.

....if it weren't for that I would be in sh...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i have a few ideas!!....then you will also have to pedal the bicycle and listen to me and listen to me again,,,,,,,, . at the moment however I still have to learn how to ride on two wheels myself, but I want to have fun !!!!!!!

If it wasn't me, there was someone else...

In any case. I am listening to Nancy's recordings at home now on the Genelecs.

You can really tell when good microphones are used!! In terms of EQ, there is very little to be done. Send me these stems, I'm dying for them! I am extremely curious to hear what comes out.

The piano, especially in the central section, seems out of tune to me.

Ah, that's great to hear, it encourages me a lot!

While I find the confirmation regarding the tuning quite disheartening... I was hoping it wouldn't be noticeable... well, yes, it was tuned about a month ago.. I wasn't able to wait for the climate to stabilize with the turning on of the heaters and perhaps it was affected by that.. tomorrow I will send you the "stems"... if you are eager, imagine how I am!!

nancy wrote:

....if it weren't there, I would be in sh...t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a few ideas!!....then you will have to pedal on the bicycle too and listen to me and listen to me again,,,,,,,, . at the moment however I still have to learn how to ride it myself on two wheels, but I want to have fun !!!!!!!

I can't wait, I like pedaling and listening and listening again and listening again.

......finally I have everything for the recording (it arrived early this morning),. even the cad trion 8000.

i've done the first tests. from what I could hear with my headphones, I really like how it fills the sound; it gives it more body without coloring it unnaturally like the rode used to do!!!!!!!!!!! so far I have tried placing it by aiming it above the grand piano strings and then below.

Below, in my opinion, sounds softer and I like it more. then I tried it as omnidirectional in the same position and compared to the cardioid it is definitely better, much more "resonant and classical"....I repeat, always heard with my headphones which are starting to sound decidedly indecent. I don't know if it's easier with monitors but listening with these headphones is really difficult....you have to pay enormous attention to catch the differences and perhaps not all of them can even be heard.

as soon as I manage to set the gains properly, I'll send you the stems.

unfortunately from the PF I can't see if it clips and I can't manage them by myself and this is a big problem because I always have to wait for my husband!

simone thanks for the advice on the cad....from what I can tell, it pairs very well with the schoeps!!!!

i think i'm done.

cad under the tail of the omnidirectional piano

schoeps in the same position as before but a little bit closer to the piano

No... Send the wave files on Drive. With the SoundCloud ones, we're done for. All heavily compressed...

Ah, broth is good.... I like it so much right now I am at work. I'll see if my husband can provide for it

Ahahahahahah ok. Poor husband!

If he were to ask for a divorce, I wouldn't be surprised at all; by now he'll have the stigmata, poor man, surely he walks around the house with a halo on his head.

When is he blessed?

He already is... blessed... because he is with me!!!

Jokes aside.. he has a certain amount of holiness! Otherwise, he truly couldn't be with me!....but he says he has fun. last night he managed to load them anyway .....

It is certainly as you say