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How, can we 'speak' about music?

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LucaCavaliere

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Opening post by LucaCavaliere

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PREMISE

The discussion on the Consecration of the House (Beethoven's opus 124), interesting and full of reflections from many aspects, seems to me to have had a not-so-pleasant epilogue: I am referring to Daniele's words where he claims to be out of place and owes apologies. I do not agree with him.

Dear Daniele, you are not out of place. I will not rewrite how much I gained from you in that discussion (I believe I have already done so well in my last message which is there to be read). We can disagree between the two of us regarding the judgment of a piece. Let's take, for example, that very Beethoven overture. Between you and me, there is full agreement regarding the emotional impact (we are both very captivated by it, I believe it is clear from what I have written), whereas we disagree on its belonging to the world of late Beethoven. All this is fine.

The problem that has left such a bitter aftermath is the difference we have—among all of us—regarding what is permissible and what is "a little less" so when talking about music, and in particular when it comes to pronouncing judgments on this or that piece.

PROPOSAL (FOR REFLECTION)

How much does the impression of listening weigh?

How much can the score "say" regarding a piece?

The score is the piece, or does it constitute its 'biographical generalities'?

How much do the author's original intentions matter?

Obviously, regarding these three questions, I have my own ideas, and I would gladly talk about them.

But what I felt compelled to do now was to propose these questions to you. It probably lies in the fact that each of us has different answers from others in this regard, which is why we often "don't like each other much," not so much because of differences in opinion, but because of the 'ground' on which we consider it permissible or less permissible to base those opinions.

CONVICTION

(personal, obviously)

It is easy to fall into incorrectness when talking about music. I have already written elsewhere: by exposing one's own feelings, one inevitably ends up in incorrectness and partiality. I have come to terms with it: perhaps to talk about Music in a way that is alive, participatory, and full of suggestions, there are only "incorrect" ways.

PROPOSAL (OF METHOD)

I therefore propose to everyone this space, this discussion, as a place that could accommodate the aftermaths inherent in the ways and limits of 'talking about music': aftermaths that I would prefer to see as interesting flourishes. Perhaps I am wrong, but I think they will still flourish as soon as we go to talk about Für Elise or 'Rage for a Lost Penny.'

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Reply 2 by Frank

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The classic parallelism never hurts.

I would like the responses to take into account a possible "translation" of them into contexts such as medicine, architecture, and painting. Just so as not to do anyone wrong...

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Reply 3 by thallo

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I have a fundamental obsession, which I have expressed several times on this forum: I hate the ethical implications of discussions about music.

That is to say, if someone thinks differently than I do, I trust that I will not change my attitude toward them, I trust that they will not change their attitude toward me, I do not give and do not wish for judgments to be made about them as a person or about me as a person etc. etc. etc. This thought of mine has often led me to get angry in discussions about contemporary music or pop music, especially when similarities like "pop lover = ignorant" or "contemporary lover = overly cerebral," et similia, manifest themselves. This is my first firm point: talking about music does not mean expressing judgments about people.

Another point is, indeed, that of judgment. I don't even remember with whom anymore, but some time ago there was a discussion about Savinio and one of his critical judgments. Well, I think that all of us (and everyone) have a tendency to consider musical discourse as critical discourse, regardless. By critical discourse, I mean the expression of an opinion that is very often related to the value of a musical piece. Critical discussions and judgments are always legitimate, but they often lead to infinite and useless diatribes. Especially when one loses sight of the fact that every judgment should be argued, and argued not in a subtle way but in an honest way. How shall I say, it should be the interest of the person arguing to find "the truth" (... a term to be taken with a grain of salt...), not to win the argumentative struggle against others. By saying all this, I am shooting myself in the foot, because often I myself gloat over my rhetorical skill and destroy discussions just to be right :-) but it shouldn't go like that... unless our purpose is explicitly to start mini-verbal brawls.

If it is wise to distance oneself from critical judgments, then what can one talk about? Well, I love analysis very much... it is complex and long to do, but nonetheless I love its methods and intentions. And analytical discussions are not intended to issue a judgment such as "this is beautiful," "this is ugly," "this is third style." They tend to compute elements and provide keys of interpretation that are not unique. Analyzing does not reduce a piece. That is, the piece remains there, regardless of my analysis, and offers itself to millions of other analyses without being corrupted by them. Analysis has to do with understanding but it is not understanding, in the sense that a piece cannot be definitively understood, in any act, whether it be analytical, critical, contemplative, performative, mystical, or whatever it may be.

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Reply 4 by thallo

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besides, I have just read through the entire discussion on Die Weihe des Hauses, which I hadn't been following.

I discovered that some of my considerations are quite timely. But I feel it is right to emphasize how none of them stemmed from that specific discussion :-) every reference to people and things is absolutely coincidental

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Reply 5 by danielescarpetti

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Dear Luca, even reading what Claudio writes, which I feel like subscribing to, and not only or not so much in light of the latest discussion, I realize how talking about music - just like talking about medicine, architecture, painting ...- everything is extremely relative.

As you can see, not only by reading between the lines of this forum but also and especially by comparing texts and books, even among "experts" opinions are very different and contrasting. This to such an extent that everything - yes, everything - can be questioned and is open to debate. Think about what Glenn Gould thought of Mozart for example... but also of Beethoven!

In reality, what ultimately prevails over all of us are personal tastes: there is no use beating around the bush, but they take the lion's share, despite everything else.

Therefore, I could respond that rather than talking about music, music must be listened to. Everyone will listen to what they believe is best and amen!

In this sense, I could say that I find the musical diary that Frank has proposed here increasingly beautiful and convincing, where each of us, based on the day and their own personal tastes, can propose a piece of music and a composer to anyone. Those who want to share it can do so, those who do not, vice versa.

For example, I proposed Borodin's "Prince Igor" and added a postscript saying that it is a wonderful opera.

It is not a very well-known opera and, in Italy, at least from what I know since I was there, it was last performed in Verona at the theater in 1987. It is not Wagner, nor Verdi, nor Mozart, nor Puccini... but in my opinion, it is wonderful, and it involves a composer that many consider "minor." In this, I am expressing my own personal taste...!

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Reply 6 by LucaCavaliere

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[I have already done so with a private message, but I want to reiterate with this post that is a bit less laconic, and readable by everyone]

Thank you Thallo… for spending some time writing, above, about how you approach speaking (and reasoning) about music. Not that I hadn't intuited the things you say from the tone of many of your interventions, but it truly pleased me to hear you speak directly about what I call your 'inner grammar': a grammar that I absolutely do not want to give up (even if so different from mine). I, too, obviously, want to hurry and write something about myself.

My dear Daniele,

i agree on the fact that music should above all be listened to. How could I not?... The fact is that 'about music', among forum participants, people do talk and, deep down, it is nice to do so. You have always talked about music: and a lot, and with much interest on my part. At this moment, however, I am "settling" for you looking with confidence only at the Musical Diary board. And I can well understand that.

A warm greeting to everyone!

Luca

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Reply 7 by Bianca

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I believe it is practically impossible to express an "asceptic" comment. I call it that so as not to get bogged down in terms for which too many words would be needed. If we express an opinion, we automatically find ourselves exposed to receiving counter-opinions. This happens in an amplified way when, not only is an opinion expressed, but a work is produced, whether musical, literary, or scientific. The dialectical game is inherent in the social nature of the human being, but it possesses multiple facets, some less good. And this game often leads those who are aware of it to attempt to express their judgments in the most unassailable way they are capable of. In this sense, dialectics has the absolute merit of making a thought proceed (I do not use progress) toward an ever-greater clarification. However, such a thought can be refutable even if it is very clear. In truth, someone could even argue that any thought can become refutable under certain conditions. Here lies the key point.

Whatever the thought and whatever its level of clarity, it will never be unassailable, and in fact, it will be so all the more as one attempts to make it clear. The fact is that any thought, even if ultimately refuted, cannot—but actually does—have something for which it is worth deepening, perhaps something more than others. And at this point, a part of the human intellect that is too often dormant must make its voice heard, namely the capacity to face the different. The capacity that makes us say yes before no, to grant an agreement before any reasoning of convenience. After all, it is the same courage that allows us to taste something new and try a taste never experienced before, or that makes us persevere in listening to a new musical form until it has had time to become familiar. It is only this courage that makes us truly human. For this reason and under these hypotheses, I believe that one must always continue to speak and express one's judgments regarding music and anything else.

Bianca.

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Reply 8 by thallo

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Bianca wrote:

The dialectical game is inherent in the social nature of human beings, but it possesses multiple facets, some less good. And this game often leads those who are aware of it to attempt to express their judgments in the most unassailable way they are capable of. In this sense, dialectics has the absolute merit of making a thought proceed (I do not use the word progress) toward an ever-greater clarification. However, such a thought can be refutable even if it is extremely clear. In truth, someone could even argue that any thought can become refutable under certain conditions. Here lies the key point.

Whatever the thought may be and whatever its level of clarity, it will never be unassailable, and in fact, it will be all the more so the more one attempts to make it clear.

I am tendentially in agreement, but with some specifics.

We often think that opinions are "completely" debatable. In reality, even in judgments and opinions, there are "predictable" domains, meaning logical parts of which one can say "it is true" or "it is false," as with mathematical propositions. If in my opinion I assert that Moscow is located in Turkey, that is a false statement that makes the rest of the expressed opinions less "credible."

It is one of the reasons why struggles over opinions are often struggles over facts, precisely because facts, before being interpretable, are predictable.

Musical domains such as listening, however, make it possible to go beyond even this limit. If Abbado were to claim that in his mind the "Eroica" is set in Kuala Lumpur during an alien invasion, we would have to resign ourselves to the idea that anyone can think whatever they want, while playing or listening, and that free mental associations sometimes help works of art speak better. It is one of the reasons why contemporary opera productions sometimes decontextualize everything. And this is because art is not "true" or "false," it is not predictable; on the contrary, it can afford to have no meaning, other than aesthetic.

Great discussion, anyway :-)

The fact is that any thought, even if ultimately refuted, cannot—but actually does—have something for which it is worth delving deeper, perhaps something more than others. And at this point, a part of the human intellect that is too often dormant must make its voice heard: namely, the capacity to face the different. The capacity that makes us say yes before no, to grant an agreement before any reasoning of convenience. Ultimately, it is the same courage that allows us to taste something new and try a flavor never tasted before, or that makes us persevere in listening to a new musical form until it has had time to become familiar. It is only this courage that makes us truly human. For this reason and under these hypotheses, I believe that one should always continue to speak and express one's judgments regarding music and anything else.

Bianca.

Beautiful. Shareable. In theory. I don't think that curiosity toward the different makes us "human," but it is certainly one of the characteristics I like in people. And it requires strength and courage.

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Reply 9 by Bianca

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I fully subscribe to everything Thallo has said. I would also add a comment regarding what I read in a post on this forum in the topic http://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/2074-il-primato-nella-musica/ because it seems relevant to me.

I would simply like to warn against possible misunderstandings or instrumentalizations regarding Gödel's incompleteness theorems cited therein, which are valid under precise hypotheses. Hypotheses that involve, among other things, the theory of natural numbers expressed in a certain way (not in all) and a particular formal language, called first-order. Drawing conclusions outside of this field is arbitrary. In truth, even those who wrote these theorems tried to do so during their lives, but without ever reaching a definitive position. At least on this, Wittgenstein was perhaps right, who, although not fully succeeding in the critique reported in “Bemerkungen Uber die Grundlagen der Mathematik”, warned against deriving philosophical reasons from mathematical reasons. Furthermore, even staying within the relevant field, one must realize that the relevant propositions upon which one cannot decide are not actually many.

In this sense, then, one could even think without particular hesitation about how to establish primacies among composers. The problem would be deciding with respect to what a primacy is sought. If it is sought, for example, relative to the number of works written or their volume, then it becomes easy and quite possible. Someone will surely think that this is an insignificant parameter, but they must reflect on the fact that much more relevant criteria of increasing complexity can be chosen, obviously as long as such complexity is humanly manageable.

On the other hand, the issue can also be seen from another perspective. Perhaps for some, it is precisely the unprovable questions that are interesting. One must then remember that even the proposition expressing the consistency of that theory of numbers, which causes so much discussion because it is not provable within the theory itself, becomes instead provable, for example, by using a broader system (for example Zermelo-Fraenkel, or Gentzen, 1936), although this in turn will suffer from the same pathology. And anyone wishing to derive some suggestion from this fact could, for example, argue about the infinite possibilities of research. Or vice versa, about its inability to reach a point. But one must always remember where one starts and that extrapolations from context are not always well-founded. The discussion is certainly interesting and very extensive, perhaps not infinite, at least due to the fact that I assume humanity is not such. That our intellect has limits has been known for a very, very long time, well before the beginning of the last century, and it was certainly not a theorem that demonstrated this to us.

In the end, therefore, the most sensible answer to Luca's question, about how one can 'speak' of music, could consist in identifying a set of significant criteria (not definitive or absolute, as even constitutions change over time) in light of which personal judgments can be tested. This would probably also provide satisfaction to the metalinguistic connotation that leaked from the quotation marks in the topic title. In itself, this would already be quite an undertaking for a virtual discussion group like this, and there would be many starting points to be found.

Greetings to all.

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Reply 11 by LucaCavaliere

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Communicating what one perceives when listening to a musical work, while remaining ‘within it’ with a tension aimed at grasping its meaning, one must take courage and expose oneself to judgment, knowing that no one can fully judge themselves. I think it is better to leave others to provide a more objective evaluation of what is rigorous and what is arbitrary. In this regard, as much as one obviously tries to perform a personal screening, it is not possible – perhaps not even useful – to attempt in person a perfect distinction between what is the result of reasonable deduction and what goes too ‘far’ into the landings of one's own reflections.

These ‘landings’ – never definitive, never properly ‘conclusions’ – are however, in their own way, ‘retrospective stops’ on the personal and incessant journey that leads to the heart of a work of art. I think it is better to leave it to others to also evaluate the encroachments, whether owed or undue, from the “purely musical” toward the “extramusical”. But I accept such judgment serenely; besides not being convinced that there is a continuous wall – high, solid, and blind – on such a boundary, I consider the possibilities of dialogue between these two terrains to be as delicate as those between different positions regarding faith (always hoping they do not culminate, as has happened in the history of musical criticism, in religious war). I therefore try to question, to stand before the work of art, sometimes admitting that I understand nothing at all.

In the rare cases in which I sense ‘something’ – while still considering it prudent to start from the assumption that a musical piece in itself does not intend to mean anything – , I prefer to risk contestable assertions, in the firm conviction that the value of a work is not only circumscribable “legally” with phrases proven on a technical level, but also (which is much more desirable) susceptible to being understood through assertions capable of openings, of tears into the human specificity of the single work, which constitutes the place of the ‘sharing’ of the human experience between composer, performer, and listener.

I realize that chasing music with words on its own terrain is an indecent action. In part, it certainly is. Especially for those who, like me, are convinced of the total expressive autonomy of music, not only from the word or poetic concepts, but also from suggestions related to everything belonging to the visual realm: whether pictorial, chromatic, graphic, or scenic.

However, I try to overcome this discomfort in the conviction that every musical piece, even those conceived to follow a ‘program’, has nonetheless been created following necessarily ‘absolutely musical’ logics and that the most intimate content of every work, even Bach's most “absolute” fugue, is deeply linked ‘to the human’. I therefore try to overcome the embarrassment of speaking of a musical work by touching upon “extramusical” concepts, convinced that the profound meaning of music – of works in which a sense truly lies hidden – is ‘human’ and not asseptically “musical”.

If the idea of “absolute” music proves to be devoid of substance in relation to the expressiveness of many masterpieces, even instrumental ones, which are certainly ‘music’ but not “pure” and are not foreign to the human struggle of the author, on the other hand, it does not seem correct, in the face of a musical piece, to seek the root of its truest contents outside of music. The latter are certainly not extramusical in the sense of some proclamations, however noble they may be, perfectly decipherable albeit with difficulty, which however have little to do with music and of which music would constitute a sonic reduction. However, as just stated, such contents are linked deeply – not explicitly – to the human struggle of its author: to this ‘beyond’ toward which the musical work mysteriously alludes in its simply posing as nothing other than music.

In this light, I feel drawn to the highest respect for the absolute expressive independence of music from the word and from every other perceptive realm, considering it therefore – only with respect to such interferences – in its musical purity.

But I think – without the rigidity that is often masked as “rigor” – that ‘independence’ does not necessarily mean the impossibility of ‘analogical relationships’. One must distinguish between attempts to translate content from music to words, which are always clumsy, and attempts, perhaps necessary, to bring words closer to music by touching upon its meaning. Neither these latter, in my view good although destined for an inevitable partiality, nor the former, destined instead for complete failure, would be undertaken by anyone if, in the depths of the soul, one did not sense arcane correspondences: mysterious but concrete analogies, between the expression

verbal and that musical.

For the sake of correctness, one should then clean up, or enrich, the vocabulary of musical reflections. The various languages are not even provided with terms adequate to deal with music 'in purity'. Expressions such as 'sound fresco', 'sound image', 'dramatic gesture', 'narrative tone', 'grand scene' etc. are common currency even in the propositions of the fiercest supporters of absolute music. This fact, far from being proof of impurity or dependence of music on the verbal realm – and all the less an indication of an actual need for lexical reforms, heaven forbid! – is sufficient to establish among all forms of artistic expression (not only between music and word) true relationships, not of dependence, but of original kinship. The soul is like a river that bathes these 'banks' of expression. There are no 'bridges' that establish a full and tangible contact between them, but sometimes they are visible to one another with an 'analogical gaze'.

Obviously, it can never be recommended enough that everyone takes care of the decency of their own gazes.

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Reply 12 by danielescarpetti

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How can we "talk" about music?

While answering this question off the cuff, I am listening to Saint-Saëns' Symphony No. 3, which FranK proposed to us in the musical diary, and I feel like thinking and saying that I love it just as I loved it as a teenager while listening to it. In writing this, I know that others, reading me, will think that I have barbaric tastes and the discussion, our talking, will be essentially over.

How can one talk about music?

In a technical manner, but this discussion will only be for that minority – within the minority – of "insiders." But we already know well that, even in that manner, in the end personal taste will always prevail at the expense of everything else and, regardless, it will become a discussion for its own sake.

One can talk about music in relation to the historical moment, to other arts, to poetry and literature, to philosophy, depending on what our extra-musical personal inclinations are. But this discourse will only interest those who understand music in that way.

One can talk about music as a soliloquy, as often happens to me, having to ask myself afterwards, for that matter, if they have read me and if those who eventually have, thought this or that, instead of this or that.

One can talk about music....! Yes, but why talk about music if music is meant to be listened to?

Perhaps because we all need to feel less like islands?

Perhaps because in the end, we all need to put our personal ego on display?

Or perhaps because.....?

What does it matter after all that I like this composer more than that one, or from that composer this concerto rather than another?

That historical period rather than another?

In the end "everything in the world is a joke" and we are "all fooled"!

How right our musical and national "Peppino" was!

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Reply 13 by thallo

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danielescarpetti wrote:

Perhaps because we all need to feel less like islands?

I will later pick up the threads of some reflections that interest me very much.

But, intuitively, I share this short sentence. Regardless of what is said, deep down I believe that communication is a "sentimental" necessity. We communicate for love or out of fear of being alone, just as one does with a lover, or with a friend. How are you? What did you have for lunch? What was the last CD you bought? :-)

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Reply 14 by Frank

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Regarding the critic...

A critic cannot be fair in the common sense of the word. It is only on things that do not matter that one can give a truly impartial opinion, and this is undoubtedly the reason why an impartial opinion is always absolutely devoid of value. The man who sees both sides of a question is the man who sees absolutely nothing. Art is a passion, and in matters of art thought is inevitably colored by emotion, and is therefore fluid rather than fixed, and since it depends on fine moods and exquisite moments, it cannot be confined within the rigidity of a scientific formula or a theological dogma. It is to the soul that art speaks, and the soul can be held prisoner by the mind just as much as by the body. Naturally, one should not have prejudices; but as a great Frenchman observed a hundred years ago, having prejudices in such matters is a personal fact, and when one has preferences, one ceases to be fair. Only an auctioneer can admire all artistic schools equally and impartially. No: being fair is not among the qualities of the true critic. It is not even a condition of criticism. Every form of art we come into contact with dominates us for the moment to the exclusion of any other form. We must surrender ourselves completely to the work in question, whatever it may be, if we wish to conquer its secret. [Oscar Wilde - The Critic as Artist, with some observations on the importance of doing nothing]

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Reply 15 by aaa

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Thank you for this beautiful, articulated exposition in favor of Artists, of Art, of its noble enjoyers (who practice abandonment) and of its ignoble enjoyers (critics and the like).

I believe I have found an assonance in the Platonic dualism of soul and body. Starting precisely from the premise that one cannot consider an objective evaluation just if it is vitiated by subjectivity (which is usually what I believe the critic does), one cannot use objectivity to measure the soul when it expresses itself through art. Here, it makes me think that there is Art and art, and here Schopenhauer glossed over something referring to literature and Literature, but can this also be applied to art in general to say what? The initial condition for abandoning oneself is that there must be Art and not art. And if it is therefore that Art speaks to the soul, I find the most beautiful passage in your indication to abandon oneself completely to the work in order to grasp its secret; beautiful also this word, secret, which contains so many aspects. But dear Oscar, you have made me grasp this last deductive thought, applicable to the 1800s and early 1900s: the Artist, through a risky exercise dictated by a nature that is sometimes self-destructive, sometimes less, which consists in the undoing of the ego, would put themselves in a position to use Art to make "their" soul dialogue. When I speak of the soul, it is obvious I am not referring to the Christian or Platonic one.

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Reply 16 by thallo

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aaa wrote:

Thank you for this beautiful, articulated exposition in favor of Artists, of Art, of its noble enjoyers (who practice abandonment) and of its ignoble enjoyers (critics and the like).

ok, thinking that "ignoble" enjoyers can exist is part of those moral judgments which, in my view, should never be joined to discussions about music...

I believe I have found an assonance in the Platonic dualism of soul and body. Starting precisely from the assumption that one cannot consider an objective evaluation just if it is vitiated by subjectivity (this is usually what I believe the critic does),

is a wrong and somewhat sectarian assumption. Taking up the idea of impredicable propositions and predicable propositions, in simple terms, there are objective elements and subjective elements in every human discourse. Criticism has always been a discourse with authorial responsibility; it does not pretend to be objective—on the contrary, it is strictly linked to the signature of the person who elaborates it. Throughout history, there have been different styles of art criticism and music criticism; many have succeeded due to the degree of artistry with which they were formulated, others have succeeded due to the truthfulness of certain technical statements within them. And it is this, in my opinion, that should be understood: one can agree or disagree with criticism, but its censorship serves no one.

As for the rest of the discourse, I will not express myself; I am not a materialist, but I do not think that aesthetics has anything to do with the soul, whatever that may mean

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Reply 17 by LucaCavaliere

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[on the margins of the topic 6 Bagatelles of opus 126]

@ Pio

You ask me what is missing from Rattalino's writing for it to be a listening guide.

What is missing is what is missing in many other listening guides: the willingness to talk about the musical piece without beating around the bush too much.

It is not an easy thing to talk about music (about a musical work).

However, I struggle to call a text a listening guide when 50% of it discusses cataloging and market/publishing issues. Then, for a good 15%, it talks about bagatelles in general within the Beethovenian oeuvre.

When it finally dedicates the last 35% to the main subject (opus 126), it does so in a... surgical manner.

Descending major third intervals, fourth intervals, fifths... Everything is very correct.

But we are not only musicians, composers, and aspiring ones who frequent concert halls.

I repeat: I adore Beethoven's opus 126. But it is music that I sincerely would not hesitate to propose even to someone who is a beginner in approaching music.

I think it doesn't take much to do better than that listening guide. Embarrassing.

Let me be clear: for me, it is embarrassing as a listening guide. The entire part concerning the daily Viennese-Beethovenian-publishing hustle, I read with interest.

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