How to Approach Mozart's First Sonata

You will probably know how to play the Sonata in C major when you have studied three or four others. Every new technical or musical obstacle needs time to be overcome, but, precisely, it must be overcome and not bypassed. Clementi's Sonatinas are at a lower technical level and, for this reason, "will not be enough for you." It will take a little patience, that's all. The Sonata in C major is beautiful and fun and you will like it, but in the beginning, the discouragement will be much greater than the joy of playing it, I know from experience. Listen to some (not just one!) good interpretations to understand what your musical goal should be and to understand some aspects of Mozartian writing, and go ahead. Here I am putting a beautiful performance by Mitsuko Uchida for you to start with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29JHhIHeTag&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PLCB016E5371F0F0CF

Open content (youtube)

carletto wrote:

I wanted to know what kind of mental and technical attitude one should have when approaching the study of Mozart

First, obtain some good scores, I suggest

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/1124-partiture-mozart/

carletto wrote:

I wanted to know what kind of mental and technical attitude one should have when approaching the study of Mozart, particularly the sonatas.

I would deepen your knowledge of JC Bach and J. Schobert; they are two fundamental authors for understanding more about Mozart because he came into contact with them in London and Paris respectively, and these two authors had the opportunity to shape WAM's personality, in terms of his approach to the keyboard.

Furthermore, both wrote many sonatas for both harpsichord and fortepiano (in particular, see Op. XIV, specifically no. 4 in D minor by Schobert).

To better enter into the perspective of Mozart's personality and idioms, there is the good Rutini, whom WAM met on the advice of Father Martini during his trip to Italy.

That being said, you should know the treatise by C.P.E. Bach (Essay on an Essay on a Method for Playing a Keyboard Instrument), which can be very useful to you in general, also regarding fingering, articulations, and ornaments for music of the second half of the 18th century.

I don't know how many people know it, but L. Mozart wrote a treatise (for the violin) ...that is illuminating regarding phrasing.

There are also Mozart's Viennese sonatinas, which I think are more preparatory than Clementi's in relation to the study of Mozart's early sonatas.

Thanks to everyone, technically speaking, the embellishments also scare me a lot

carletto wrote:

technically speaking, ornaments also frighten me a lot

And you're right!

Joking aside, mastery of ornaments and particularly trills is, in my opinion, fundamental and must be carefully cultivated. Consider that for some keyboard instruments, the diction of these elements is even a distinguishing factor (I am referring to early keyboards).

I happen to come across pianists who see these aspects as almost insignificant and annoying, and trills in particular—I hypothesize—because the heaviness of modern piano keyboards makes these ornaments more of an obstacle than a musical pleasure, and they are treated as pure mechanical exercises within musical phrases.

To fully understand my point and adopt concepts that are important for interpreting Mozart (where how you move... moves, you err), it would be ideal to study these works on late 19th-century pianos or, for those few privileged ones, Fortepianos from Mozart's era (see Stein), where the phrasing flows wonderfully and the trills and other ornaments required by the music find their proper place.

I hope I haven't lowered your morale, but doing good work on Mozart is not easy.... perhaps a bit like for many other composers, but as I was saying, WAM's [Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart] seems to me to always be a minefield.

Guys, you are too high level for me... I am really down to earth

carletto wrote:

Guys, you are way too high level for me... I am really down to earth

I understand that you are at the beginning but:

carletto wrote:

I wanted to know what kind of mental and technical attitude one should have to approach the study of Mozart, particularly the sonatas.

If you ask like that, it sounds like you want to get specific information about Mozart; if the problems are technically generic and you were expecting something like: study hands separately, do this... do that... perhaps the question should have been phrased in other terms.

But I say this with great friendliness, eh

At the end of the day, fear of ornaments aside, what is the problem?

Frank wrote:

Joking aside, the mastery of ornaments and particularly trills is, in my opinion, fundamental and must be carefully tended to. .

..it would be ideal to study these works on late 19th-century pianos or, for those few privileged ones, Fortepianos from Mozart's era (see Stein) where the phrasing flows wonderfully and the trills and other ornaments required by the music find their proper place.

That is exactly what discourages me in Mozart and in the Baroque repertoire (Bach first and foremost). Trills and mordents come out "sloppy" (not very clean) and too measured!

On the harpsichord (which I own in addition to the piano), the execution does not go any better, and things only improve (nothing comparable to what is heard on records) after hours of practice that allow me to "adapt" to the harpsichord keyboard.

Perhaps one needs to articulate a lot during study sessions and then try to forget the meter and sing while performing...

Would you have any advice for studying trills, mordents, and ornaments in general?

I would be very interested.

pestatasti wrote:

any advice for studying trills, mordents, and ornaments in general?

Ornaments deserve separate and dedicated study; the fact that they are measured is normal at the beginning. The trick is to sing them with freedom and follow this freedom with the hand.

In short, the free trill is heard and executed by ear... the measured one is done with a metronome.

pestatasti wrote:

It is exactly what discourages me in Mozart and in the Baroque repertoire (Bach first and foremost). Trills and mordents come out "sloppy" (not very clean) and too measured!

On the harpsichord (which I own in addition to the piano), the execution does not go any better, and things only improve (nothing comparable to what is heard on records) after hours of practice that allow me to "adapt" to the harpsichord keyboard.

Perhaps one needs to articulate a lot during study sessions and then try to forget the meter and sing while performing...

Would you have any advice for studying trills, mordents, and ornaments in general?

I would be very interested.

I don't think such a broad problem can be resolved with a single post, but I can give you some pointers.

The first relates to the fact that, although similar in form (I am talking about the keyboard), the instruments you mentioned are very different and require different techniques that are not always compatible. Improving on the harpsichord might also mean worsening on the piano.

Someone was saying to follow the ear; I say that the ear must also be trained for that purpose, so one of the paths is always to listen extensively to great interpretations.

It can happen, and it does happen, that technique fails to keep up with the ear, so that the hand—or let's say more elegantly, technical limitations—acts somewhat like an anchor.

Ornaments and trills in particular deserve separate study (here I am referring to the piano); there are several variations that can be applied. The basic one that provides fairly immediate results is studying trills with the "ribattuto" (reiteration).

Imagine a trill on two white keys based on fingers 2 and 4. With both keys depressed, start with the 2 doing 5 repetitions, then with the 4 doing 5 repetitions, then 4, then 3, then 2 repetitions, always keeping the finger that is not working depressed... as a last resort, released.

Clearly, the tempos of the ribattuto are not like a sloth; it must occur at a sustained speed.

Having dexterity in the fingers helps to accommodate what the ear (duly trained) seeks...

... I know it's little, but aside from this first basic exercise which certainly won't hurt, many different approaches can be taken on a case-by-case basis. Then it also depends on the abilities and characteristics of the person who wants to delve deeper into the subject.

Frank wrote:

Imagine a trill on two white keys based on fingers 24.

never done... 24 on two white keys is not a very pianistic fingering. That fingering is very comfortable when it comes to a trill with the lower note on a black key and the other on a white key, but they must be distant, such as Eb-F for example. If the black key is very close (C#-D for instance) it already works poorly and 23 or, even if it seems strange, 31 (sic!) is better. Also 35 is not bad but can result in a less powerful combination; it depends on what is indicated. On two white keys, the combination 13 is used with better results (or 23, but it is less effective), although the non plus ultra, as far as I am concerned, is 1323 etc. with the alternation of 1 and 2 on the lower note of the trill.

Look Carlos, I am of the opinion that the fingers must travel and that fingerings during the study phase must be addressed in their entirety. Honestly, I have found the problem of thumb articulation to be more widespread than that of the fourth finger, which is why 2-4 remains a comfortable fingering even when spanning two white keys... clearly if there were a black key involved things would change and certain choices would be more "obligatory."

There are those who believe that for every x notes of a trill, the fingering should change due to fatigue issues, and one of the paths could be 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, and anagrams of combinations... polyphony permitting, perhaps executed by other fingers.

All this to say that my example was basic to exemplify the concept of variations (the crux of the discussion) and anyway I do not disdain 2-4, also because one must contend with the pianist's fingers, where the thumb and pinky are typically the most problematic fingers.

It's not that these problems shouldn't be solved, but if someone doesn't find 2-4 comfortable, it is an opportunity to practice.

I'll take it step by step. Don't take it personally...

Frank wrote:

But look Carlos, I am of the opinion that fingers must travel and all fingerings during the study phase must be addressed.

First thing: it's not true. Second thing: if they all must be addressed, what are we going to do? A nice D trill D-C-D-C 1 5 1 5??? Come on, please...

PS "it's not true" because it's like telling a dancer that "during the study phase" they must learn to walk with the left foot along with the right hand... because one must try everything.

Frank wrote:

Honestly, I have found the problem of thumb articulation to be more widespread than that of the fourth finger, which is why 2-4 remains a comfortable fingering even when spanning two white keys ... clearly if there were a black key involved things would change and certain choices would be more "obligatory".

The 1-3 trill is executed with a mixed articulatory/rotary movement. The comfort lies precisely in that: the rotary movement also guarantees a certain power, which is why it is preferable to 2-3 and 1-2. The 2-4 trill on two consecutive white keys is pianistically total bullsh*t, with all due respect to you. In my opinion, you have never tried it, and if you have, you probably did it wrong. You don't learn how to do trills from books.

Frank wrote:

There are those who believe that for every x notes of the trill, the fingering should change due to fatigue issues, and one of the paths can be 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, and anagrams of combinations... polyphony permitting, perhaps performed by other fingers.

"There are those who believe", "I have found"... Frank: I know how to play the piano, okay? So if I take the liberty of writing that your fingerings don't work, most likely, I am right...

PS a finger change generally requires one of the two fingers to remain unchanged; otherwise, it is impossible at speed. Therefore, the changes you suggest do not work for two reasons: what I just said and, second, that 2-4 and 3-5 are not valid fingerings on two consecutive white keys, as I have already said..

Frank wrote:

Tout to say that my example was a basis to exemplify the concept of variants (the crux of the matter) and anyway I do not disdain 2-4, also because one has to deal with the pianist's fingers, and the thumb and pinky are typically the most problematic fingers. Not that problems shouldn't be solved, but if someone doesn't find 2-4 comfortable, it is an opportunity to practice.

2-4 does not work on two consecutive white keys (repetita iuvant!), if you want to waste time practicing it, go ahead, but don't suggest it to someone asking for suggestions to solve technical problems that you yourself cannot solve. There is no reason to practice with that fingering. One can use the others I indicated, and having played quite a bit of piano repertoire, I think I can give my opinion without needing Uncle Frank who always pulls out some "variant" or some ad hoc treatise. With this, I am done.

I have a curiosity, is there always only one fingering for every passage?

Avevo inteso che non esisteva una diteggiatura valida in assoluto...ma forse avevo capito male.

Of course Carlos, when talking about orchestration one must have read somewhere... in some treatise. When talking about fingering... perhaps ancient given the repertoire... (we were talking about pieces born for harpsichord) ... practice is better... eheh, life is easy.

Well, I use 2-4 even on the white keys... very convenient and effective.

Natan wrote:

When talking about fingering... maybe old-fashioned given the repertoire... (we were talking about pieces born for harpsichord)

I didn't understand which treatises are being referred to, CPE Bach?

Gianni22 wrote:

I have a curiosity, is there always only one fingering for every passage?

Avevo inteso che non esisteva una diteggiatura valida in assoluto...ma forse avevo capito male.

You understood correctly, there is no absolute right way; it depends on the passage and on what one wants to achieve as an effect.

Gould played with a hand position that was questionable to say the least, it goes without saying that the results are there ... so...

Natan wrote:

Of course Carlos, when talking about orchestration one must have read somewhere... in some treatise. When talking about fingering... perhaps ancient given the repertoire... (we were talking about pieces born for harpsichord) ... practice is better... eheh, life is easy.

Hehehe, but "orchestration" is not a technical trick: it is the definition of a practice and therefore must be institutionalized; one cannot invent it as you have done. One cannot say "I write with the orchestra in mind, so 'orchestration' means what I think it means," whereas regarding fingering, although one cannot speak in absolute terms of right or wrong fingerings, practice has a decisive importance. The fact that we were talking about pieces born for harpsichord matters little: whoever started the discussion plays this sonata on the piano and the fingering changes in this case due to the different mechanics. Harpsichordists, for example, rarely use the first finger, especially when playing scales. What do we do? Do we not use it anymore either if we play a piece "born for harpsichord"?

PS for ttw: do you use 24 to trill on two consecutive white keys?