Is My Piano Out of Tune?

Sacrosanct words... And it is absolutely true! To perform the test, it is enough to simply use a chromatic tuner (which does not work for tuning) but which can measure the frequency variation of a single note from one day to the next or even after just a few hours of use. The notes drop by at least 1-2 cents after only one day (more or less). All this is obviously due to the strings settling into the new "tension"; the difference in section then determines the amount of detuning. This is why pianos for a concert are tuned only a few hours before the concert, often finishing before the audience enters (see, for example, Horowitz, who always brought his faithful tuner Franz Mohr with him).

Greetings

I agree.

Besides, one cannot keep one's piano perfectly out of tune all the time.

Let's keep in mind that a well-tuned piano, with a well-stabilized tuning.....lasts!!!!! If the instrument holds well, the design of the plate is good....the tuner is good....then the tuning should drop gradually without excessive drops.

A professional who works with their instrument should have the tuning checked often and not just that. I agree.

Dearest Pianotuning, I very much look forward to your other extremely precious contributions, especially for me, as I am a humble novice of piano technology.

I thank you in advance.....

Best regards

saverio

Why is it claimed that a chromatic tuner does not work for tuning, even though all models (including those costing 12 euros and non-chromatic guitar tuners that only tune the 6 strings) are in any case already calibrated for equal temperament?

Because chromatic tuners tune by frequency comparison. They record the frequency being heard and compare it with the one they possess. If it is higher, they suggest lowering it; if lower, raising it. For this reason, they do not take into account the inharmonicity of the strings, which varies from piano to piano and string to string... This is why the ear is irreplaceable, because it relies on certain intervals to listen for their beats. In this case, we are talking about relationships between harmonics, and the beat count already takes inharmonicity into account. The piano and chromatic tuners do not get along. Try tuning a piano with a chromatic tuner; once finished, playing it, you will hear it sound dull.

Thanks TheSimon for the answer, before I used to tune only "by ear".

But now, when it's convenient, I also use a software for tuning (listening to the beats on certain portions of the keyboard remains a bit tiring for me and in any case takes too much time).

The program I use, rather than a frequency comparator, is a frequency meter that instead of displaying the frequency in question, indicates it with the classic LED scrolling (like a professional Yamaha tuner).

In the future, I will try to tune only by ear or only with the PC, trying to perceive the differences.

And you Pianotuning, who spends your life with a wrench in hand, what do you think?

hi sergio,

personally, I tune pianos by ear in the traditional way because the human ear has always been the best tuner I know!!.

Sergio wrote:

Why is it stated that a chromatic tuner does not work for tuning, even though all models (including the 12 euro ones and non-chromatic guitar tuners that only tune the 6 strings) are in any case already calibrated for equal temperament?

The question arises spontaneously and, in my opinion, deserves an exhaustive answer, because those who are not professionals but are nonetheless curious cannot understand it, even after reading various manuals and now the various tutorials available on the internet. I see that TheSimon has already taken a step and probably provided the answer, but in a way that is still unclear to a novice. Therefore, I want to present what might be the point of view of someone who doesn't understand and attempt to give an answer "from the bottom up," without claiming to interpret the doubts of others.

The simplest question is:

Everything that is read in tuning manuals regarding equal temperament, beats, etc., will surely be reproducible via an electronic chromatic tuner, perhaps even straight from the factory; that is, once the frequencies are established taking into account what is explained in the manuals, I should be set, right?!

The answer is no! Well, then we need to understand why.

Is it perhaps a problem of sensitivity? Is it possible that we are unable to build an instrument, no matter how expensive, that has sufficient sensitivity to fix frequencies in a satisfactory way?!

The answer should be: of course it can! At this point, if the right answer turns out to be wrong, it means the question is wrong!

I believe we must then move into the field of perception, both of the ear and of the electronic instrument, and I believe the devil here is the non-linearity of the auditory system and also that of the "real string" system.

If the electronic instrument were reliable in extracting a fundamental frequency from the sound of each vibrating string, and at the same time the ear were satisfied with having the fundamentals of all strings fixed to precise manual frequencies, we would have no problems.

The problem is therefore perhaps that the ear does not look for the fundamental nor even the simple ratio between fundamentals, but rather the perception of the pitch of a complex sound produced by a "real" string and even more so the ratios between complex sounds. The intelligence of the ear, even before the brain, cannot be reduced to a simple FFT, which an instrument can perform no matter how sophisticated. The perceived pitch would therefore not be that recommended by the instrument and could certainly be different from one piano to another.

Therefore, between one piano and another, the error produced by the electronic instrument certainly varies.

One cannot even think that the error produced by the instrument is constant over time and therefore "photographable" by the instrument for reuse, because obviously the physical characteristics of the piano vary over time.

At this point, one would have to ask: how subjective can tuning be, and how much instead is the quirky fineness of the ear reproducible from one human being to another?!

From personal experience, it seems to me that it is very reproducible, and therefore I also think that the "distance" from one ear to another is typically much smaller than that between an ear and an electronic instrument.

Forgive the length of my attempt, but I perceive and share the need for an answer!

kind regards

p.s. probably, out of ignorance, I have also underestimated the functioning of professional instruments, but I believe the substance does not change.

Let's listen to a piano tuned by ear and then the same piano tuned electronically. We will notice some differences.

These differences are, in my opinion, extremely small; relatively greater instead are the frequency variations caused by time (even an hour), temperature, relative humidity, tension on the frame, string stretching following the increase in traction, microscopic counter-clockwise rotations of the tuning pins, etc.

I hope I am wrong so that I can put my mind at ease and go back to counting beats.

I have seen some tuners and luthiers tuning pianos using only electronic devices for the individual octaves and everything else.

Forgive me, but as a beginner I had read what Simone wrote and thought I understood, but when I finished reading yours, I fell back into confusion...

What does it mean that if the electronic instrument were able to extract a carrier from the sound of each vibrating string? How can a carrier exist on a single vibrating string? By carrier do you mean the one that generates the beat?

ah ah,

I apologize, but I didn't want to cause confusion (or maybe I did...) 🙂 ,

actually, by carrier I meant the fundamental vibration, slower and initially more intense, to which we generally think of referring the pitch of the note

anyway, mine is just an attempt at an explanation, so don't rely on it too much... 🥷

But if the pianist always plays on an out-of-tune instrument, how can their ear improve? Will a pianist's ear therefore always be at a disadvantage compared to, for example, a wind musician who always maintains the same intonation? Is that how it is, or am I wrong? And, playing for, say, 3/4 hours a day, how often would it be advisable to have the piano tuned? In truth, playing with an instrument that is never in tune is a suffering. And do seasonal changes, or rather temperature changes, not contribute to further worsening the intonation?

pianoexpert wrote:

A professional working with their instrument should have the tuning and more checked often.

Paolo, what does it mean that other things besides the tuning need to be checked? What are the operations one should periodically ask the technician for, in addition to tuning, to prevent something from being neglected over time, especially when a technician is dealing with simple students like me who don't know much about it?

Hi Gianfranco, the questions you have asked are all intelligent.

In America, pianists have a maniacal control over their instrument. Control meant as always keeping one's piano tuned and mechanically efficient.

In Italy it is not like this. Many pianists resort to calling a tuning technician only when the piano is unlistenable!!! and as you rightly said, one gets used day after day to a chronic out-of-tuneness that becomes a habit and one ends up taking everything for granted.

A professional, but also a student who studies and works on the piano for a few hours a day every day, and wants to keep their instrument truly "in order," should have it tuned every 2 months.

As far as the tuning of an instrument is concerned, the environment where the piano is placed is very important; away from sudden temperature fluctuations but above all humidity.

Pianoaccordatore wrote:

Hi Gianfranco, the questions you have asked are all intelligent.

In America, pianists have a maniacal control over their instrument. Control meant as always keeping one's piano tuned and mechanically efficient.

In Italy it is not like this. Many pianists resort to calling a tuning technician only when the piano is unlistenable!!! and as you rightly said, one gets used day after day to a chronic out-of-tuneness that becomes a habit and one ends up taking everything for granted.

A professional, but also a student who studies and works on the piano for a few hours a day every day, and wants to keep their instrument truly "in order," should have it tuned every 2 months.

As far as the tuning of an instrument is concerned, the environment where the piano is placed is very important; away from sudden temperature shifts but especially humidity.

I was told (not here on pianoconcerto.it) to have the piano tuned once a year, or every six months, but what is the point of playing an out-of-tune instrument? I was told this by the two tuners at the shop where I purchased the piano. Even I, who have been studying the piano for very little time, exactly one year, find it annoying to play an instrument that is not tuned, furthermore damaging my ear because I am not educating it to intonated sound. What is the point of telling people that a tuning once a year is sufficient? Pianoaccordatore, I share what you have written, even if obviously having the piano tuned every two months is a significant expense, but if one chooses to study the piano, one must factor that in. And Beethoven, Chopin, and all the others, who knows how often they had their home pianos tuned.

Whoever told you that tuning the piano once a year might be enough could be right.

In fact, tuning a piano depends on its condition, the environment in which it is located, and the musical needs of the owner.

A piano used as a piece of furniture will not need to be tuned more than once a year. A piano that is played regularly and is in good condition might get by with 2 tunings a year; a piano that is played for daily study by a student or professional musician might need to be tuned every 2 months. (in this case, generally, tuning technicians offer discount packages)

Pianoaccordatore wrote:

Whoever told you that tuning the piano once a year might be enough could be right.

In fact, tuning a piano depends on its condition, the environment in which it is located, and the musical needs of the owner.

A piano used as a piece of furniture will not need to be tuned more than once a year. A piano that is played regularly and is in good condition might get by with 2 tunings per year; a piano that is played for daily study by a student or professional musician might need to be tuned every 2 months. (in this case, generally, tuning technicians offer discount packages)

Usually I play the piano four hours a day, my instrument is excellent, meaning it is new, and it is among the most expensive on the market. Of course, it has a beautiful sound, but I don't always feel it is perfectly in tune. The last time I had it tuned was last winter, but the technician, just like the one from the previous tuning, told me that, yes, fine, if you really want to, you can have it tuned every six months, but it is excessive. Does this mean that the pianist must resign themselves to an imperfect tuning, which in reality does not exist?

Gianfranc0 wrote:

I usually play the piano four hours a day; my instrument is excellent, meaning it is new and among the most expensive on the market. Of course, it has a beautiful sound, but I don't always feel it is perfectly in tune. The last time I had it tuned was last winter, but the technician, just like the one from the previous tuning, told me that, yes, fine, if you really want to, you can have it tuned every six months, but it is excessive. Does this mean that the pianist must resign themselves to an imperfect tuning, which in reality doesn't exist?

Anyway, thank you very much, Pianoaccordatore, for your kind answers. I would have another question for you: "What can be used to clean piano keys from hand grease?".

If your piano is "modern" and therefore has resin-coated keys, comparing myself with other technicians as well, I recommend Vetril with ammonia, obviously applied not directly onto the keys but on a cloth.

. . . perfect tuning does exist dear Gianfranco, the problem is that playing 4 hours a day, "perfect" tuning will only last a few days, not because your technician is incompetent but rather because the repeated percussion of the hammers on the strings causes a non-uniform relaxation in the latter. So in cases like yours, one either tunes very often to maintain perfect tuning always, or one must be tolerant and accept a piano that inexorably tends to go out of tune.