L. V. Beethoven

Is the Octave better than the Seventh!?

13 replies 2,041 views

Started by

LucaCavaliere

Member

Member

Opening post by LucaCavaliere

Posts
860
City
Segrate

"Czerny reports that Beethoven himself considered this work [the Eighth Symphony] "better" than the Seventh (Beethoven-Jahrbuch, IX, p.61)"

This can be read among the notes (note 36, p. 372) of good old Riezler.

That Riezler had a high regard for the Eighth is known. That Beethoven considered it better than the Seventh.... mah!?... I never gave him too much credence

Is there anyone who knows more details about Beethoven's judgment on these two of his symphonies and the comparison between them?

I am asking because lately, listening to the Eighth, I am beginning to think that Beethoven was right.

Not that I really want to reopen the discussion about which symphony is "better" than the other (which doesn't make much sense to me). But if Beethoven truly expressed a judgment of this kind, what could he have meant? .... Was it just a reaction to the preference granted by the public to the Seventh?

i think there is something more to it on the author's part, a judgment that isn't quite so visceral.

is it possible that this "superiority" of the Eighth is in terms of compositional strategy?

(this is what I suspect Beethoven meant)

You, composers and non-composers alike, what do you think?

Member

Reply 2 by danielescarpetti

Posts
1,032
City
Castel San Pietro Terme

It certainly won't be me to decree whether the Seventh or the Eighth is better, not only because I love them both but, above all because, I am unable to assert this or that.

I will therefore limit myself to providing a small chronicle of the matter.

Surely the Eighth, among the nine Beethoven symphonies, is the most controversial. Roughly speaking and with the benefit of hindsight, it can be said that the judgment of the general public is in contrast with that of many "insiders." The former prefers other Symphonies – not just the Seventh – while among the latter, many consider it the most "perfect" of all; let us think only of Maestro Noseda.

The aspect that leaves the general public perplexed is undoubtedly the brevity and conciseness, compared to the great heroic symphonies, and Beethoven's return to what was the Haydn-Mozartian symphony.

Obviously, Beethoven's conscious choice was not a flaw to be attributed to the Eighth, but a choice that, during that period of his compositional life, touched various other works: I am thinking of the Piano Sonata Opus 90, the String Quartet Opus 95 and, albeit more relatively, the Violin and Piano Sonata Opus 96. In all these masterpiece works, it can well be said that Beethoven renounced the large dimensions and the solemn and dramatic tone typical of the works of his heroic style, seeking a new one. In reality, this search ended in the great silence of the years between 1815 and 1816 and serves as a prelude to his greatest visionary masterpieces of his late age.

But let us return to the Eighth!

If on February 27, 1814, the date of its first performance, the Allgemeine Musikalisch-Zeitung wrote: "(...) the symphony did not seem quite satisfactory and the applause it received was not accompanied by that enthusiasm that distinguishes works that obtain universal consensus; in short - as the Italians say - it did not cause a sensation.", four years later, on January 17, 1818, it wrote instead: "The true lover of art welcomes with open arms this magnificent and brilliant work of the inexhaustible Beethoven, a work that is not only by no means inferior in style to his earlier and more rudimentary ones, but on the contrary perhaps surpasses many of his predecessors in variety, artistic conduct, novelty of ideas, and the extremely original use of all instruments; in other words, it is a worthy spiritual offspring of its truly exceptional creator: Judging such classical compositions represents one of the most gratifying moments in the life, generally not particularly pleasant, of a critic."

And what exactly did Beethoven think of this Symphony?

He, obviously, was aware of the intimate character of the Eighth and, precisely because of this – but not only for this – he gave it a particular position among his symphonic works. He attributed to this intimate character the responsibility for its lack of success with the public at the first performance and, as always, became quite irritated: "(...) it was not liked because it is much better than the others."

The composer was thinking of the numerous and refined novelties hidden within its pages, both in terms of instrumentation and in the symphonic transformation of ideas and effects that until then were considered purely chamber-like. For his contemporaries, all this proved to be unusual, something that is not so for us today. The public certainly did not feel the same sentiment for the Seventh, which is a Symphony in the tradition of that historical-musical moment.

For Beethoven, however, as a good innovator on a continuous journey, the Eighth represented artistic progress and, as such, could only become his favorite.

Pensate that it was precisely the Milanese who were the first to come into harmony with Beethoven on this subject. In fact, in 1818, when the aforementioned review was made, the Eighth was performed in Milan and to the public of the Milanese city: "it was liked a little more than the Seventh."

Member

Reply 3 by LucaCavaliere

Posts
860
City
Segrate

Thank you Daniele . . . . but how much do you know!?

you did well to bring up Noseda. I had already seen that interview back in the day, but I didn't remember it. By pointing it out, it is almost as if you "forced" Maestro Noseda to participate in the discussion since he speaks of the Eighth also in terms of compositional technique.

It impresses me to hear a seasoned veteran like him speak about this music with the enthusiasm and terminology of a young boy.

A veeeery positive impression..

But there is one thing you wrote that left me stunned:

1818 .... date of the first Milanese performance of the Eighth ..(and the Seventh, if I understand correctly, right?)

Good grief!... so soon!?... for the Ninth in Italy we will have to wait until 1878

http://www.quartettomilano.it/it/00002/4/storia-del-quartetto.html

i am surprised by the Eighth in 1818....

http://www.quartettomilano.it/it/00002/4/storia-del-quartetto.html

Member

Reply 4 by danielescarpetti

Posts
1,032
City
Castel San Pietro Terme

I smile, Luca, and I thank you but, the only merit that I can truly have is that of surrounding myself with books on music and on Beethoven in particular, from which I draw the information I need.

Imagine that not more than two months ago I found myself in Bologna in an Eataly that has a huge Coop bookstore attached, and there I found as many as 5 books on our composer, including a new reprint of the Riezler you are talking about, which I was missing.

Could I perhaps resist?

The shop assistant might have thought, perhaps, that in all his years of work, never had so many books on Beethoven left at the same time. Who knows?

Member

Reply 5 by Bianca

Posts
510
City
Torino
danielescarpetti wrote:

You think it was precisely the Milanese who were the first to come into harmony with Beethoven on this subject. In fact, in 1818, when that review mentioned above was written, the Eighth was performed in Milan and to the public of the Milanese city: "it was liked a little more than the Seventh".

I, however, continue to prefer the seventh :unsure: ...

Member

Reply 6 by danielescarpetti

Posts
1,032
City
Castel San Pietro Terme
Bianca wrote:

But I continue to prefer the seventh :unsure: ...

It is very likely that I too would respond this way when faced with a blunt question, but I must confess that the Eighth has opened a large gap in my mind.

I remember that when my father introduced me to Beethoven's Symphonies, he told me that the best were the odd-numbered ones and the lesser ones were the even-numbered ones. At those times, it was a rather widespread opinion.

And yet, on second thought, even then it was full of holes.

If the Eighth was still called a "little symphony," a step back compared to the great previous symphonies, how could one consider the First among the greatest and not the Sixth?

I was already wondering, however, how a symphony that came eighth could be lesser than the others.

Over the years I have strongly revalued the Fourth and I have realized that the Eighth is a masterpiece of Symphony and, I do not exclude at all that it might soon surpass the Seventh in my tastes.

Member

Reply 7 by LucaCavaliere

Posts
860
City
Segrate

One thing that piques my curiosity (puts a flea in my ear) is the tonal relationship with the Pastoral.

F major. What is F major to Beethoven?

FAR FROM EXPRESSIVE DETERMINISM. But... some scattered thoughts.

«Beethoven wrote few works of such "good humor," from beginning to end, like this symphony. But what powerful thoughts are those that inspire this good humor in him! It is truly the good humor of a god; from the main theme of the first movement to the finale, every bar has an equal "specific weight"»

(always my dear Rielzler on page 231)

1) indeed I also feel a sacred fury, Dionysian, in the first and last movements of the Eighth (my favorites in this symphony).

2) The Pastoral. How much the Pastoral, with its sweetly luminous F major, vibrates with the feeling of Divinity that Beethoven had...

«to say is not a trade», Count Ugolino would say.

3) Finale of the Ninth. «und der Cherub sthet vor Gott» ("and the cherub stands before God").

At the end of the third vocal variation, at the last repetition of the word "Gott," the music reaches the dynamic peak of a paroxysmal crescendo. But what truly surprises is not the dynamic power, but rather the harmonic eruption of F major. Contributing secretly to the amazement is the fact that this harmony breaks through "underground": it is reached through the movement of the low parts of the strings which, together with horns and male voices, pass from A to F natural, while at the "surface" of the singing, all other instrumental and choral parts repeat the previous A.

... And a different light, F major, breaks in suddenly.

4) In Opus 132. Heiliger Dankgesang eines Genesenen an die Gottheit, in the Lydian mode.

Ok: the Lydian mode... After having thanked, in F major, the Divinity after the storm at the end of the Pastoral, in the quartet op. 132 a broad song of thanksgiving... still in F major (with B natural... even more diaphanous).

... Far from me is expressive determinism.

Member

Reply 8 by danielescarpetti

Posts
1,032
City
Castel San Pietro Terme

Dear Luca, you were right to preface that EXPRESSIVE DETERMINISM IS FAR FROM YOU because, as Massimo Mila taught us in "Musical Experience and Aesthetics," we cannot "seriously claim the old supposition that there exist original expressive differences between one key and another," but they are, conversely, "historically determined in our taste by the use of individual keys" which "certain musicians have made in their masterpieces." Mila gives the example of D-flat in Beethoven and G-flat in Mozart and, naturally, the same can be said of F-sharp, also in Beethoven.

Member

Reply 9 by LucaCavaliere

Posts
860
City
Segrate

Dear Daniele. You have stolen the thoughts from my head

I was thinking specifically of Mila. Holy words. Certain things can, at most, be observed. As I wanted to do.

But not for this reason to claim to turn them into "rules".

Even C minor in Beethoven should not be absolutized as an epic-dramatic key always and anyway.

The Fifth, Coriolan, the funeral march of the Eroica are fine. But.... just yesterday I was listening to the third concerto again. In short: even in the first and third movements, it is music with a different vitality from those others. Aside from the bithematicism of the sonata form, it's not that, despite the C minor, I feel all these struggles and cataclysms of fate that are in the other aforementioned works.

The opus 111, then, is a whole other world.

I would return for a moment to Mila for a consideration. Granted and not conceded that there is something sensible in my observations on F major in Beethoven (I meant something... true), I do not believe that Beethoven "did it on purpose". Mila said very true things theorizing the unconscious nature of artistic expression: things that should be taken into account not only in music but in all other forms of expression.

Member

Reply 10 by OrlandiArmando

Posts
234
City
San Biagio di Valpolcevera (Genova)

A hug to everyone.

I won't go into the merits of what is better or worse, but I am attaching a beautiful sketch recently reconstructed, which serves as inspiration for those who do not yet know it; these sketches are in the notebook called "Petter" kept at the Preussische Staatsbibliothek in Berlin (now only Deutsche Staatsbibliothek) and date back to the years 1810-1811.

http://www.lvbeethoven.it/Documenti/Beethoven_pianoconcerto_fragment.mp3

Happy listening with eyes and ears wide open!

Friendship,

http://www.lvbeethoven.it/Documenti/Beethoven_pianoconcerto_fragment.mp3

Member

Reply 14 by Azzurro

Posts
94
OrlandiArmando wrote:

I will not go into the merits of what is better or worse, but I am attaching a beautiful sketch recently reconstructed, which serves as inspiration for those who do not yet know it; these sketches are in the notebook called “Petter” kept at the Preussische Staatsbibliothek in Berlin (now only Deutsche Staatsbibliothek) and date back to the years 1810-1811.

Forgive my ignorance, what do you mean by “recently reconstructed”?

Log in to participate