Leitmotive

It is a matter of definitions; recurring themes, leitmotifs of various types have always existed. The "new" characteristic of Wagnerian leitmotifs is that they constitute practically the entire fabric of the works, conveying concepts rather than characters (there are themes for the Valkyries, for Wotan, for Siegfried, but also themes such as victory, the ring, redemption, etc.) and they appear even when the character is not present but is named or somehow foreshadowed by the dramatic action at that moment.

Rather, if someone tells you that before Wagner there were no themes linked to characters or recurring themes, well, they are wrong. It is a fairly common thing throughout music history as far as I know

The leitmotif is something quite different from the musical recurrence you find in Mozart, also used by his predecessors and very common in some of his "minor" contemporaries.

However, calling them "leitmotifs" seems like a stretch to me.

That's what I meant. The Leitmotif is a precise thing (Wagner, as is known, called them "Grund Themen"), everything else should be defined in another way (also because it is something else)

Thanks to both of you, everything is a bit clearer to me now ... but can these "Grund Themen" be explored in more depth?

Leitmotiv (recurring or leading motif) is a factor of cohesion in the dramatic/musical discourse. This technique was already used by previous musical theater, and I am referring to that of the revolutionary period in France and that of Weber. However, there is a but

Wagner uses this technique systematically and constructs a precise musical unity associated with a mood, thought, or feeling linked to a specific situation, object, concept, or event in the drama. The motifs are subjected to incessant variation and elaboration, combined in a contrapuntal manner, and establish the unity of the whole (it is also useful to know Liszt's experience with the symphonic poem).

These themes are more eloquent than song and word, and they are fundamental for creating connections between the different parts of the story.

Thanks to you too Frank, the matter seems increasingly clear to me

Gianni22 wrote:

can these "Grund Themen" be explored further?

I am interested too, I didn't understand if the topic already answers [the question] somewhere

Barbara, Thallo wrote:

thallo wrote:

The Leitmotiv is a precise thing (Wagner, as is known, called them "Grund Themen"), everything else should be defined in another way (also because it is something else)

Grund Themen=Leitmotiv