Lieder: Transposition

I prefer the original keys chosen by the composers

Gagaku wrote:

How debatable is it to do so, particularly during an exam?

Someone in a conservatory does it, I think it can be done ... now I'm having doubts...

As far as I know, Schubert himself authorized the transposition of his Lieder into other keys; beyond that (which is not a small thing, on the contrary!), there is a long practice that even leads professionals to transpose them up or down to a major third.

Furthermore, this practice allows voices of different color and range to bring great masterpieces to life ... what is the problem?

LucianoP wrote:

I prefer the original keys chosen by the composers

... who in turn proposed transpositions... see Schubert, for example

I agree with Frank, particularly in the case of historical editions that already account for transposition. Only in certain cases is it evident that a Lied is intended for a particular vocal color and a specific tessitura.

However, if your problem, Gagaku, concerns Conservatory exams, then I advise you to inform yourself well beforehand: commissions, being made up of human beings with their own tastes and rigidities, are always a bit unpredictable; one certainly cannot assume absolute "objectivity." Therefore, find out what the commission thinks regarding this issue.

As was mentioned, the transposition of Lieder is a common practice. In the conservatory, as far as I know, it is officially accepted "only if" that transposition is in use. That is, if you find the published score or a recorded performance in that key, then you can also comfortably perform it in that key. In reality, this is a stupid way to approach a false problem. The Lied, the Chanson, and the Italian art song are all transposable, except when we are faced with mandatory instrumental writing. That is, Strauss's Vier letzte Lieder, which are for soprano and orchestra, would be better not transposed, but it is not said that there aren't great performers who have done so (but we are talking about minimal transpositions, at most a tone). If we speak of true transcriptions for another voice, then even there it makes sense to question the necessity of it for a moment. Transposing by a tone or by a major third are very different things, but there are repertoires in which this is absolutely common (Schubert especially, but in general all Germanic Lied composers up to Schubert and all authors of Italian art songs).

Thank you all

Just to frame the discussion better, are lieder basically like a song from other times (I mean melody and accompaniment) invented by Schubert?

Giove wrote:

Just to frame the discussion better, are lieder basically like a song from other times (I mean melody and accompaniment) invented by Schubert?

Ahem.. ahem

The lied for voice and piano establishes itself in the final decades of the 1700s in Germany, then in Austria, with the aim of achieving an encounter between poetic art and musical art. The lied establishes itself in conjunction with the evolution of the piano, which will favor the creation of melodic paths suitable for intoning lyrical and poetic ballads supported by the expressive potential provided by the new instrument.

The first examples of lieder are composed between 1750-60; they have a simple structure, a strophic pattern with text declamation discreetly accompanied by the piano. Subsequently, the vocal part emancipates itself from the strophic model and, to better adhere to the textual meanings, utilizes the compositional technique of open form, and the piano becomes a co-protagonist, engaging in dialogue with the singing.

Musicians such as C. F. E. Bach, J. F. Reichardt, C. F. Zelter, Mozart, and Beethoven contribute to the process of gradual evolution of the Lied. But it is thanks to the production of F. Schubert that the lied becomes a noble composition, capable of containing the deepest musical and expressive values of Romantic sensibility.

To complement the Schubert part, I wouldn't miss Beethoven, Schumann, Brahms and good old Hugo Wolf

Frank wrote:

...and the good Hugo Wolf

...I had never heard it before

Did Beethoven write any Lieder?

Ratatouille89 wrote:

Did Beethoven write any Lieder?

The plural of Lied is Lieder;)...anyway, the answer is: Of course! Thanks to his compositions in this genre, Beethoven paves the way for the spread of the German Lied during the Romantic period. The early lieder are in strophic form with a linear structure, while the later ones are more imbued with the Romantic spirit.

Let's say that between 1793 and 1816, Beethoven composed more than 50 lieder. I highlight 5 lieder based on poems by Goethe (1807-1810) titled “Sehnsucht”, then the cycle titled “An die ferne Geliebte” (To the Distant Beloved) op. 98, on a pastoral subject, which is the first song cycle to keep the six songs intertwined through the use of modulating piano interludes.

Marcello wrote:

...I had never heard it before

A little search on Wiki never hurts; let's say he composed something like 300 lieder (written between 1875 and 1897). He is practically considered the main protagonist of this genre in the second half of the nineteenth century.

Think about it: he lived in Vienna in precarious economic conditions, and his few earnings were guaranteed by private lessons and music criticism articles written for the weekly (Wiener Salonblatt).

In short, he enthusiastically praises the music of Wagner and Bruckner, openly expressing critical judgments regarding Brahms and Dvorak.

I repeat, a little search and everything is resolved

I add to the list the wonderful and little-known Lieder of Liszt and those equally beautiful and equally little-known by Othmar Schoeck (rediscovered by Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, perhaps the greatest Lied singer in history). Already mentioned, Richard Strauss's Vier letzte Lieder, for soprano and orchestra. In the 1900s, in fact, Lieder often become something greater, orchestral cantatas, one might say, as in the compositions of Mahler, such as the Kindertoten-Lieder, or in Schoenberg's magnificent and little-known Gurre-Lieder.

Chopin didn't write anything for voice and pf? I've been curious about this for a little while....

Certainly, Chopin wrote seventeen "Polish melodies" to texts by authors from Poland (Witwicki, Mickiewicz, Zaleski). These are occasional works, but they span his entire life, from the first composed in 1827 to the last composed in 1847

Let's not forget Mendelssohn, among the authors of Lieder: I adore him!

Thank you for the further contributions, not directly addressed to me, but very much appreciated