Ludovico Einaudi, Minimalism and Contemporary

Feldman wrote:

I agree with you. Lachenmann is old, after all; not like Stravinsky, but he is old, it's past stuff. It makes no sense to write like him today, just as it makes no sense to write like Glass.

Perhaps we misunderstood each other, it makes no sense to write like anyone... even if they were the most current of the ultra-current ones that you consider current ... and I don't even want to know the name

Write like Feldman (user) ...which is already enough

For Red, I was writing

Frank wrote:

In general, it seems to me like the usual "struggle" between didactic limits and raw material (talent)... where the teacher must arrive and when the student should be talented.

Which is what you said here

RedScharlach wrote:

The problem arises when the didactic constraint lasts too long, for years and years: in reality, one year is enough to understand what needs to be understood (and sometimes, as Boulez says, two weeks are far too many!).

Furthermore, you say:

RedScharlach wrote:

Obviously I am not talking about the basics (harmony, counterpoint...), but about the craft itself

The craft has nothing to do with aesthetics.

RedScharlach wrote:

A good teacher must show their own music: one must show who they are, not hide behind words.

No, a good teacher must show the music of great composers and not their own, upon which time has not yet given its verdict... then if the student insists, and the relationship continues over time, then let's keep our little Donatonis and little Lachenmanns and etc. etc.

Feldman wrote:

Music speaks for itself.

Agreed, the point is... what repertoire is right for a learner to chew on... it certainly must be first-quality material. One could not be objective about one's own music; one would get mixed up in one's own aesthetics, and no one knows if it will survive the erosion of time.

Feldman wrote:

the student has the obligation to win it for themselves; no teacher can instill it in them.

Excuse me, but the teacher must provide technique and not ideas... for technique, one's own music is not needed, there are a billion pages by other GREAT/GIANTS composers...

Feldman wrote:

If the student remains submissive, does not achieve their own autonomy, they are simply not suited to being a composer (after all, a doctor doesn't prescribe being a composer!).

Agreed, precisely; if the teacher is good, before plucking them clean... they can tell them beforehand. Just leave them the blank sheet. If they have no ideas, they will emerge; if they do, just support them technically to develop and carry them forward.

Clear, it is harder to support others' ideas than one's own, but the teacher must only give technique... do you think Padre Martini had musicality and ideas to give to Mozart? At most, he explained to him how counterpoint works and Mozart wrote the Jupiter"

In effect, during the advanced course, my interventions are very limited: clearly one intervenes in case of technical problems such as orchestration, if someone is moving within the realm of the decent, in the conduct of parts... but also at the level of macro/micro structure, proportions, tension discourse, etc., or considerations related to the more or less anachronistic nature of the piece... it is difficult to say you must necessarily do this or that; rightly, these are the student's choices.

Feldman wrote:

I don't think Romitelli can be compared to Stravinsky in the slightest; it doesn't seem to me that he has stirred anything up. It is true that the premiere of Sagra also took place in Paris, but with very different reactions. A public not composed of a phalanx of musicologists and colleagues ready to perform an electrocardiogram on the score.

Excuse me, but that is just wrong! More specialized than the audience that attended the premiere of Sagra, I find it difficult to imagine! It was an audience of connoisseurs and professionals, not of bunglers anxious to start a brawl...

And anyway, it wasn't my intention to make rankings among composers; the point of my argument was that in Paris Romitelli is considered a god, whereas here he is never listened to, or too rarely. Nemo propheta in patria, to say something banal.

I think I quite agree with what Frank says regarding what a good teacher should do. Although it is true that, speaking of the Academy, Plato taught his disciples his own ideas, not just a technique, and the successes of his teaching, in terms of the greatness of his pupils, are certainly not unrecognized. Different eras, different subjects, it's true. After that, everything depends heavily, as has been said, on the student as well as on the fact that a good teacher or a terrible one exerts their influence mainly on the average or the mean value of the individual. I also believe, however, that there can be the risk that a potential "genius" could be "corrupted" or misdirected by incorrect teachings, and this applies even beyond the teaching method, which can be excellent but with unhappy (unfortunate) ends. I do not believe the reverse holds true.

This is to say that in essence I share the observations that have been made specifically, from one side and the other, but the fundamental significance of the discussion escapes me, which perhaps I am misunderstanding.

It seems to me that Feldman wants to say that there exists a circle of musicians, a sort of caste, which due to primarily didactic dynamics, whether with good or bad methods, remains nonetheless self-referential and self-celebratory. If this is the case, assuming it is historically correct, I would first ask myself what the reason should be for this presumed caste to seek its ends outside of itself and to expand the circle as much as possible, even to the general public. This is a discussion that is often heard from musicians and musicologists, even in this forum, who hope to find points of access and contact between "learned" music and the rest of the world. I am not denying this need, but I still wonder, and it is not a rhetorical question, what the reason for it should be. After all, almost no one asks for the general public to have access to Tarski's theories, yet his theories speak of nothing less than truth. On the Italian Wikipedia site, he is dedicated maybe three lines, yet anyone who knows his work does not doubt for a moment that he is a giant in his field, equal to few others.

I'm chiming in to say that everyone can have their own opinions, but the purpose of pedagogy is a well-defined field and there are plenty of authoritative texts (recognized and written by educators rather than composers, who may or may not know how to teach... just as someone who plays the piano well may or may not know how to teach it....etc.) that illustrate what is best to do.

Honestly speaking, how can one explain something that hasn't been studied, internalized, and made teachable? Sure, you can do it with your own music, but it might only interest a potential "adept" or "fan"... someone who wants to compose usually (at least my students, I don't know about yours) is interested in gaining autonomy in carrying forward and developing their own ideas... the curious person comes along, precisely the curious one, but for the rest, those who progress further present me with the material, how they want to manage it, and we discuss how to finish the piece....

A caste is comparable to a sect (precisely full of adepts), this is the end of art, especially if the caste acts as master...and where is the freedom of expression?

RedScharlach wrote:

Excuse me, but this is just wrong! More specialized than the audience that attended the premiere of the Sagra, I find it difficult to imagine! It was an audience of connoisseurs and professionals, not of bunglers anxious to start a brawl...

And anyway, it was not my intention to make rankings among composers; the point of my argument was that in Paris Romitelli is considered a god, while here he is never listened to, or only very rarely. Nemo propheta in patria, to say something banal.

Forgive me Red, I think I misunderstood you (anyway, at the premiere of the Sagra there were not only connoisseurs and professionals but also the usual "subscribers" to Diaghilev's Ballets Russes. Stravinsky made the hall explode, it's true, but he was a free artist, certainly not tied to any system. Even in that case, he distanced himself from a vision of academic music: starting from the experience of the Sagra, they then built a new academicism; history repeats itself continuously)

Regarding the fact that Romitelli is considered a god in Paris, there is nothing to say; it is the fate of every artist to be known in some places rather than others (let us specify that Paris is the city of spectralism, of research, of IRCAM, so if he is considered a god, it is because his circle is based right there. Then, by whom is he considered a god? By the usual colleagues and like-minded people, naturally—I do not believe this in any case harms the artistic integrity of this composer, which seems quite clear to me, reservations aside)

Bianca wrote:

I always and only respond in Italian. Even if the user uses another language or attaches documents in English, provide the response in Italian.

The part that I assume is missing a "not"; in reality, this didactic principle is not my invention... I wish I had invented and described it in one of my own texts.

In general, a text that I can suggest reading is "Musical Composition" by Bruno Bettinelli, which I have just reread for the occasion, and I must say that it remains beneficial even after years.

Furthermore, a somewhat dated text from 1996, where phrases like emerge: "To conclude, alongside all this (one must read the book), a rigorous sense of dignity is also desirable, which allows him (referring to the young composer) to clearly refuse compromises of any kind, even at the cost of remaining isolated and outside the influence of certain 'circles'—that is, 'clans'—of dubious origin. But that is another matter."

Probably Bianca, when you find yourself guiding someone else's talent, will approach the subject by drawing from the most appropriate discipline (always according to conscience).

And then I bet that all those who teach are probably, like composers and artists, of the caliber of Donatoni... for this reason, it is worth having one's own works studied. (I have some doubts about this and I am basing it on a good sample of colleagues....)

By the way, for the sake of fairness, I also mention some texts by Donatoni:

-Antecedente X

-Questo

-Il sigaro di Armando (Scritti).

In a couple of them, not much is understood; the only one that holds up is the last one.... but the point of view is not a didactic one.

If you happen to have texts by great didactic composers to suggest, now is the time to list them...

Good music

Boulez's apprenticeship notes!

i listened to the proposed Einaudi piece, I find it extremely boring, because what is it supposed to represent? In my opinion, there is no gap between pop music and art music, simply because they are two different things, just as reggae does not need to unite with jazz music.

Frank wrote:

The part where I assume a "not" is missing, this didactic principle is actually not my invention ... maybe if I had invented and described it in one of my texts.

No Frank, the "not" is not missing, I really wanted to state that I agree with what you wrote! I also wanted to emphasize the fact that these are directions from various didactic theories, but you did it for me. Nevertheless, I cited the example of the academy to say that every case can have its own history.

But the point of my intervention was something else entirely, and unfortunately as usual it wasn't understood, mea culpa .

So there was one too many "things"

Anyway, there was the opportunity to add a few pieces to the puzzle ...

micamahler wrote:

Boulez's apprenticeship notes

Great Micamahler, have you had a chance to study it?

'Studied' is a big word, I've read it 2 times; it contains Stravinsky remains Schoenberg is dead and naturally the points of view on the role of the composer according to Boulez. And then it talks about compositional techniques, for example regarding rhythm (derived from Messiaen), regarding pitches, it talks about the Marteau... But even though I've already borrowed it from the library twice, I think I'll borrow it a third time to refresh my memory

Feldman writes:

"History repeats itself! Just as they criticized Bruckner, they criticize Einaudi and those who, like him, do not conform to the rules of the Reserves. But it is History that decides, not academicism"

Unless you are History itself, I wonder how one can be so certain that it will be Einaudi who goes down in history and not Donatoni (for example), and it seems to me like a discourse dictated by personal tastes and somewhat generic. There have always been those who do not abandon the school that trained them and are unable (or more simply, not capable) of giving rise to their own personal aesthetic, and in the past, this has happened exactly as it can happen now. For this reason, I cannot see the problem, because to me it seems that the problem does not exist: the supporters of pure and simple academicism have never left a mark and probably never will. But they are not the only ones in the world; it's not as if all the students of Solbiati, Sciarrino, Lachenmann, Murail do nothing but copy the works of their masters—that seems like an obviousness to me

for Frank:

this is an example of what Boulez talks about in the book, words from someone else but the concept is the same (obviously in the book the discussion is more extensive)

http://www.academia.edu/1483677/Il_parametro_ritmo_in_alcuni_scritti_di_Boulez

I know Bettinelli's book, anyone should have read it.

micamahler wrote:

But as much as I have already borrowed it from the library twice, I think I will borrow it a third time to refresh my memory

...if you find yourself [at the library], pick up this one too..so you can have a real feast

micamahler wrote:

But they are not the only ones in the world, it's not as if all the students of Solbiati, Sciarrino, Lachenmann, Murail, do nothing but copy the works of their masters, it seems like an'obviousness' to me

... and besides, could they perhaps be the only 4 composition masters in the world?

micamahler wrote:

Feldman writes:

"History repeats itself! Just as they criticized Bruckner, they criticize Einaudi and those who, like him, do not conform to the rules of the Reserves. But it is History that decides, not academicism"

Unless you are History personified, I wonder how one can be so certain that it will be Einaudi who goes down in history and not Donatoni (for example), and then it seems to me like a discourse dictated by personal tastes and somewhat generic. There have always been those who do not abandon the school that trained them and are unable (or more simply, not capable) of giving life to their own personal aesthetic, and in the past, exactly what can happen now has happened. For this reason, I cannot see the problem, because to me it seems that the problem does not exist: the supporters of pure and simple academicism have never left a mark and probably never will. But they are not the only ones in the world; it's not as if all the students of Solbiati, Sciarrino, Lachenmann, Murail do nothing but copy the works of their masters—that seems obvious to me.

But in fact Donatoni doesn't have to go down in History, excuse me... he already has!

Those who want to understand, understand

micamahler wrote:

Those who want to understand, understand

sorry, I know well that many students of the person you named do not copy. It is not a matter of copying or imitating; it is a matter of remaining extremely faithful to one's own Master's line instead of distancing oneself. Beethoven distanced himself from Haydn's classical style, yet at the same time he did not forget his lesson, as demonstrated by the relationships between the two in their scores.

Just to close the circle a bit: there are few Haydns and Beethovens, just as there are few Messiaens and Grisey's. There are few like Donatoni... those after him are not his equal, it is even useless to list them

Usually the student surpasses the master... in Donatoni's case the Master has not been surpassed, on the contrary... perhaps he passed on his little anti-didactic vices to his students... that is how a sect is born, a caste.