Ludovico Einaudi, Minimalism and Contemporary

Speaking of the teachers of teachers, apart from Donatoni and Bettinelli, many from Milan (since it seems to me that you are referring to that temple) also studied with Brian Ferneyhough: Melchiorre, Garuti, Brusa, etc.

Besides, by frequenting the centers of Paris, Cologne, and Darmstadt, it is not difficult to have a fairly "shared" preparation... obviously, then we are children of what we listen to...etc.

DiesIrae wrote:

It's all about Allevi declaring himself opposed to La Casta and writing pieces called L'Angelo Ribelle.

He basically makes the same arguments as you, but we know his music and we know he is more of a philosopher than a musician in the sense that fundamentally he is right, but his methods are those of a pop musician... we haven't heard anything from you yet.

I know Garuti well... so... I don't understand what the problem is. Besides, he is a very prepared composer attentive to sound... I mean, but what is your music?

Sooner or later I will also publish it on the Internet; in fact, I have a performance on the 27th, I think I will insert a video shortly.

Anyway, I don't care about anyone's judgment, not even criticism. I would only accept criticism if accompanied by a 50-page analysis; otherwise, I wouldn't be interested. What matters to me is that my music does its duty on an expressive level.

Besides, I am not opposed to La Casta; it exists, and that's that. I simply do not share it. If you are part of it, then good luck and... may you have sons!

ps. no problem, that's the subject of the thread, isn't it? I don't know, does it sincerely bother you to be told that the "Casta" as you call it is not okay?

You'll understand, if someone makes a choice they will have their reasons, right? Cowardice or not, if certain composers follow a precise line, they are doing what's best for them. It bothers me when people criticize those who don't think like them; then it bothers me a lot, yes.

Regarding Allevi, one can also disagree with his music, hate it and loathe it; I think that for quite some time he has "sold out" to the recording industry (the first albums released with Jovanotti have some interesting tracks), but if he made a choice, he will have his reasons.

Besides, criticism exists, one takes it. The important thing is that the criticism is reasoned with comparisons and relations; otherwise, it has zero value.

To criticize an Allevi track means to take it, analyze it, make a comparison with other tracks, and prove the criticism with logical and objective relations. Those who don't do this, how can they criticize? It seems impossible to me.

Feldman wrote:

Then I am not against the Casta,

But... anyway, read your posts. As Red says, nothing speaks better of music... obviously, in a recreational circle like this

Feldman wrote:

You'll understand, if someone makes a choice they will have their reasons, right? Cowardice or not, if certain composers follow a precise line, that is their business. It bothers me when they criticize those who don't think like them, then it bothers me a lot, yes.

You know, what do I care about the 'Casta' [the elite], I am the most traditionalist of traditionalists... for me, only the world of the discrete exists (total chromaticism). The continuum was a clever idea that has now even bored the walls... don't tell me there is still someone stuffing pieces with glissandi; let's forget about the world of noise (as the scholars call it, the world of musique concrète). I am a musician, I am interested in music

DiesIrae wrote:

You ask me, what do I care about the Caste, I am the most traditionalist of traditionalists... for me only the world of discrete [values] exists (the chromatic total). The continuous was a nice trick that has now even bored the walls... don't tell me there is still someone who stuffs pieces with glissandi; let's forget about the world of noise (as the scholars call it, the world of musique concrète). I am a musician, I am interested in music

me too!

DiesIrae wrote:

But... I mean, read your posts. As Red says, nothing speaks better than music... obviously, in a recreational club like this

True, but I promise to publish something as soon as possible.

Well, if this is my thought, will I have to express it with a bit of force?

See, Red, Feldman (user) wants to express himself in total chromaticism and his teacher, instead of aiming to develop his talent in the field that interests him, is probably aiming to make him change his nature.

Otherwise, I wouldn't explain this topic... even if poorly concealed at the beginning, becoming increasingly clear... later...

Instead of showing him his own music, perhaps his teacher could show him and have him study the music of the great composers who expressed themselves in total chromaticism and eventually push Feldman's (user) talent in the direction most suitable for him.

Of course, they will have told him that he will get an 18 at the exams, that he won't have performances in their circles, etc., but if he converts, the doors of "paradise" will open.

Look, mine is not modesty towards my music, which as Valchiria says even the greengrocer under my house (hats off to him) can easily find.... it is respect for the nature of those whom I have, one way or another, under my hands, who pay me and place their talent in my more or less pronounced teaching ability to teach them something.

If he also loves my music, then welcome... to me he is a listener; if he wants, he can analyze my music and draw his own conclusions.

Feldman, so this thread was born in opposition to your teacher making you study his music instead of that of the great composers?

micamahler wrote:

Feldman, so this thread was born in opposition to your teacher making you study his music instead of that of the great composers?

Absolutely not, this is a conjecture invented by someone (Frank? )

My teacher does not make me study his music, absolutely! The thread was born to talk about the musical situation today, about how music has changed from the avant-garde onwards. I don't understand what you are getting at! What is so annoying about my comments? I have merely limited myself to saying what I think and saying how things are. I ask you this in all honesty and sincerity.

Another thing: I am not even slightly influenced by schools, so I would never have problems of this type.

Feldman wrote:

Absolutely not, this is a conjecture invented by someone (Frank? )

Rather than a conjecture, it seems to me that there are too many discussions happening at once in this topic and I will probably be the only one, but I am struggling to follow it

Feldman wrote:

i am not at all influenced by schools, so i would never have problems of this type.

And you are doing the right thing; at school one learns technique... keep your ideas and put them to good use

Feldman wrote:

My teacher does not make me study his music, absolutely!

... it will be another "modest" one

I am not bothered at all, it is normal to intervene and give one's opinion on the topics you are trying to address... unless you wanted to turn the whole thing into a monologue ...

I am finding everything very pleasant and instructive, on matters of this kind I find small discrepancies to be normal...

Ah, thank goodness! It is absolutely not my intention to be polemical; the fact is that these are quite delicate and complex topics concerning our present; I thought it was an interesting issue to develop, and very varied arguments rich in insights and information have emerged.

Frank, I wanted to tell you that anyway, my Teacher occasionally tells me "go ahead and look" and shows me his scores when he has them at hand... but once I asked him to show them to me and he said no, that I didn't need them. At first, I felt bad about it, then I understood that this can create influences that are difficult to eliminate.

The work of analyzing pieces by others is intense, that much is true.

I believe that the act of distancing oneself from one's own Teacher also stems from an inner need to express oneself with autonomy.

The piece I am writing now, for example, is based on modal material derived from pop/rock. Well, its development is based on structural procedures that have a lot to do with Donatoni, so for me it is already a way of distancing myself from something without definitively disavowing it, but rather by collecting its legacy. This stimulates me to take an interest every day in the scores of the 1900s.

Once a teacher told me "but contemporary music no, you'll get there, but how can you make such a leap! No, we learn things from Beethoven". It is true, Beethoven is a mine to be exploited; the problem is that I live in 2013 and, by necessity, the music I feel closest to me is that of the second half of the 1900s, so it is inevitable to let oneself be influenced and interested. Then it's clear, the academic study of counterpoint and fugue is fundamental, who denies that? But I believe limiting oneself to that is not sufficient today.

I am biting my hands for not having intervened sooner, now picking up the threads of the conversation will be impossible...

Since I cannot say everything I would like to say, I will start from the beginning: Einaudi.

I don't particularly like Einaudi. And I don't consider him the flagship of post-minimalism. Perhaps Feldman (user) doesn't know it, but I am a great admirer of historical minimalism and many authors and compositions that are in various ways post-minimalist. The "experts" tend to criticize this term, post-minimalism, because for at least 30 years it has served as a catch-all for an infinite series of different styles and research. Well, many of these styles or micro-genres, in my opinion, are now far from the scope of so-called classical music or contemporary classical music. It is art music, "fringe" music, frontier music, but saying that Einaudi was a student of Berio is not enough to include him in a discussion of alternatives to research music.

I don't like the same argument regarding the gap between pop and "classical," because today "pop" is not an alternative to classical. It is an alternative with a tide of different genres, including many subgenres of rock. Is Burzum pop? Is DJ Spooky pop? Is John Zorn pop? None of them do "classical," with the inevitable quotation marks, but that doesn't mean they can be considered popular. The clash between classical and pop is a founding myth of the "classical" musical avant-garde; it is not a problem in itself, it becomes a problem at the moment we pose it as one.

What is being discussed under the surface is not "pop" understood as a musical genre—that is, definable by MUSICAL characteristics—but pop as a dimension of consumption, probably defined by sales percentages or recognition. And here the problem is much broader. Does Mozart sell more or less than Lady Gaga? Well, Mozart HAS SOLD over the years certainly more than Lady Gaga, he is better known (he has had more time to become known) and he will be in the future as well. Does Ivan Fedele sell more or less than Lady Gaga? He certainly sells less, but he has income, he has the possibility to survive and do his job, like everyone else, and if he wanted to enter into a market logic, he would do different things from what he does. And therefore, in a certain sense, he would no longer be Ivan Fedele.

What should Ivan Fedele do to compete with Lady Gaga? Should he do what Einaudi did? And what did Einaudi do to compete with Lady Gaga? From my point of view, Einaudi's possible choices were two: to do what he wanted from an aesthetic point of view and have been "lucky"; or to make commercial choices, in a commercial sense, and go looking for luck. I do not pass value judgments; I am a person who believes deeply in professionalism, and for me, achieving success is not a sin, it is a symptom of well-utilized abilities. But if we are talking about musical popularity in terms of COMMERCIAL popularity, then we exclude a series of styles and genres a priori. We cannot "blame" Xenakis for doing what he liked, and we cannot praise Einaudi for doing what he liked. Combining moral judgment with aesthetic criticism effectively means saying that Xenakis had an obscure reason for making his music (namely, he wanted to kill classical music, as many fools continue to claim) and at the same time claiming that Einaudi also had ulterior motives for writing what he wrote (namely, to make money and become famous).

by the way....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Cy3tjg1tVw

.....of contaminations

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2aI-YQhdIQ

i have always found them to be very interesting points of reflection...

Open content (youtube)

Open content (youtube)

One more like for thallo just because he knows Burzum

micamahler wrote:

Burzum

....they are tabula rasa

Bianca wrote:

l'ho sempre trovati uno sponti molto interessanti di riflessione...

mamma mia, sono diventata dislettica

I just found myself a blunder where I shouldn't have... I hate re-reading my messages...

anyway, black ambient is the future