Mannerisms At the Piano

I would reread this topic with a fresh mind

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/forum/index.php?/topic/989-tecnica-pianistica-e-debussy

But I never claimed that Chopin's etudes are useless... Please post the point where I said this sentence.

The argument there was quite different... namely: "Can one be called a pianist without having studied Chopin's etudes?"

And I continue to be convinced that one can be a pianist without having studied Chopin's etudes.

There is so much other technique for developing hand equality; certainly with Chopin's etudes, besides progressing from a technical standpoint, you also build repertoire, so the useful is joined with the delightful.

If you remember correctly, however, I was insisting on the fact that for some of Chopin's etudes, a large hand is necessary to play them at tempo, otherwise it is painful. I'll give you the example of op. 10 no. 9 just to stay on the theme of the left hand, but it's practically the same story for almost all the etudes. Thank God I have a very large hand so I don't have problems with the etudes, but does someone with small hands then not be able to be a pianist because they cannot manage to play Chopin's etudes because they are full of tenths? Or because, as in the case of op. 9 no. 10, they cannot play a fifth with 5 - 4 fingering in the bass? If we are talking about hand equality and technical preparation, well, then hand size has little to do with it. That is something that unfortunately, for those with small hands, only limits the repertoire...

TheSimon, re-reading this piece of yours, as an outsider to the discussion ...

TheSimon wrote:

Furthermore, piano repertoires unfortunately do not improve this disparity, and in fact, I would say that almost 90% of the piano repertoire is made for the right hand. I am referring to all that repertoire where virtuosity and complex passages are dedicated solely to the right hand. Well, I recognize in Chopin's studies the solution to these problems. They are designed also for this purpose: to make the left hand work, to make it reach the degree of preparation, strength, elasticity, and speed of the right hand, to equalize the two hands.

it seems that Chopin is the remaining 10%.... put a bit crudely like that ...

Reading between the lines for both of you, perhaps Chopin's studies give an extra boost to the left hand and not just from a technical point of view .... what do you say?

Frank wrote:

Reading both between the lines, perhaps Chopin's studies give an extra boost to the left hand and not just from a technical point of view ....what do you think?

Undoubtedly, but like Liszt's transcendental studies, like Czerny's works etc. etc.

Without being provocative, do you think it is appropriate to move on to the transcendentals without having tackled Chopin ...

Perhaps I didn't quite understand the question. But if I understood correctly, why not? What would be the obstacle?

TheSimon wrote:

Perhaps I didn't quite understand the question. But if I understood correctly, why not? What would be the impediment?

Moral impediments.... none. But I see transcendentals tougher than Chopin's. However, they aren't that advanced.. that's why I wanted to hear opinions...

In my opinion...

Chopin Etudes -> More demanding

Liszt Etudes -> More physically tiring.

Liszt's etudes are virtuosic, as are Chopin's actually, although the latter is more directed towards cantability and not aimed at mere spectacle for the audience.

It is not certain that virtuosity is synonymous with difficulty. Virtuosity is speed, "realization" strength, and difficulty is from a physical point of view. Often in virtuosic pieces, one finds very simple technical elements and passages that are almost obvious at moderate speeds. They take on an entirely different flavor and difficulty the moment one has to play at Liszt's metronome. Thus, a certain passage whose meaning we didn't understand suddenly takes on color if played at the right speed. Like the video posted at the beginning with the eighth transcendental etude, the results are a great sweat, great satisfaction, and great spectacle, in addition to obviously the growth from the standpoint of technique, speed, and physical endurance.

They are studies that I believe are equivalent in terms of general intended difficulty. Each author provides different insights and different technical results in their studies; it is difficult to say which is more productive and which is less, but is it really that important? It's like saying I can choose between an orange, which contains vitamin C that helps prevent illness, and a banana, which contains potassium and is good for the heart and muscles. In case of doubt, no one forbids me from having both... If I take both, my heart will be fine and I will catch fewer ailments...

Whether Morgan's hands move at different speeds, I don't know... to me it seems he just made fun of Beethoven just to play the fool, moreover with the unforgivable complicity of Augias. It is not something to cry out against as lèse-majesté, but I simply cannot stand this ridicule of art.

I find what was written by pianoexpert to be perfectly fair; unfortunately, the piano suffers too much from the 19th-century myth of the "virtuoso" in its worst sense.

As for mannerism, I think all performances that do not arise (I would say gush) from the emotion felt by the performer at the very moment they play, or from reasoned interpretative choices, but from the cold reproduction of established performance practices, should be considered "mannerist."

Which does not mean (and here lies the irreducible contradiction of art and the importance of talent) that every performer should necessarily deviate from such performance practices: even the most strictly philological and rigorous interpretation can be full of emotion and not mannerist at all.

Beautiful comment !! I agree 100%

I also agree with Pesatasti. Thank you for sharing my opinion. We agree on the fact that "personalism" originates from deep study and a great capacity for interpretation. A musician who has well understood the work they are performing can afford some personalisms, provided they are of great interest to the interpretation and do not detract clarity from the meanings intended by the Author. This commonly occurs in the "refinements of rhythm, accents, in emphasizing the clarity of an attack by preceding it with a breath of time and/or pedal, flexibility of tempo.... in short, personalism, understood as personal choices, puts a signature on an "elegance" in presenting an interpretation. A sort of "personal style" of the performer which, however, must not stray too far from a strictly philological interpretation.

Go ahead and kill me, but I find this interpretation to have aged poorly; I sense a whole series of mannerisms in it and it gives me a certain anxiety.

Beethoven Piano Sonata No 32 Op 111 C minor , Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSez73gFpdE&feature=share

Open content (youtube)

Upon first listen, I had the same idea too... Then I realized that the problem for me is psychological and related to the sound: it was only the sonic rendering that didn't convince me. A tapped and ultra-compressed sound despite often going into saturation; only later did I realize that the microphones were placed inside the piano as in Jazz... An unforgivable error by the sound engineer who was evidently not that great, even if the situation wouldn't suggest such a thing; I must say the recording is on the verge of being scandalous...

Listen, with these changes, see if it gives a better idea... I didn't re-sync the video on purpose because I want you to express an opinion based solely on the interpretation. Obviously, I have only attached a small part... Regarding the saturations, there is little that can be done in post-production. If the waveforms are clipped, they are clipped; there is little that can be done...

There would be the possibility of fixing those as well within certain limits, but it requires a lot of time and wasn't necessary for a simple listen. Let me know your impressions.

http://www.pianoconcerto.it/condivisione/michelangeli_op111.mp3

Very bad TheSimon, it must be said that it will be a historic recording... I don't know what means they had at their disposal