Hello everyone, I wanted to share with you some ideas that occurred to me during the performance of the Adagio Cantabile from the Pathetique Sonata. As you well know, the greatest technical difficulty in this piece is highlighting the melody, which becomes particularly complicated especially in the first part, where the hand performs thirds in which only one note is melodic, while the other is accompaniment. Now, I have tackled the problem and with the help of physics, I have arrived at a solution! The idea is that the keys must be depressed simultaneously, otherwise an arpeggio would result, which is absolutely incorrect, but with different forces. How to do it? The finger playing the melody should be at about 90° relative to the key, so that all the force is transmitted as a normal component, while the finger playing the accompaniment, even though hitting the key with the same force and acceleration, if it hits it "flat," ensures that most of the force dissipates as a tangential component, and only a minor part in the normal direction. I believe this is the physics of the problem; I have done some tests and it even works on the digital piano, although not perfectly. Furthermore, I invite you to listen to Vladimir Horowitz's interpretation on YouTube, which I consider truly unsurpassed in terms of cantabilità!
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nancy
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Reply 2 by nancy
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521
oh my god, maybe I'm being too simplistic....but it seems to me that you are making existence much more complicated than it needs to be!!!
the cantabile comes.....um, by singing and singing and singing again while you study it!!!! the hand follows your need to sing it exactly!! when these situations arise, I resolve them by concentrating on the finger/note to be sung and it automatically stands out...also because you won't be able to "physically" control the position in all chords
Nancy is right, in my opinion. Casella says in his book "Il Pianoforte" (which I absolutely recommend you read) that to play legato and cantabile, one must also play with a certain amount of force. Naturally, not the force of "rigidity," but that of gravitation. Being able to transfer weight from one finger to another using the gravitation of the arm and shoulder. This is a principle that was quite criticized in the last century, but I will never stop telling how Rubinstein, whom I had the fortune of knowing, made us feel on our shoulder how much weight his hand had in the cantabile. It was impressive. Naturally, this can be achieved when all the muscles of the forearm, arm, and shoulder are tension-free. In fact, as Sandor also suggests (I remember the book with the pretentious but beautiful title "How to Play the Piano"... a must-read!!!), sometimes even a certain pressure is necessary to bind notes together. In one of my video tutorials, I give an example of how fingers can be kept closed by resisting so that no one can open them, while remaining tension-free in the large muscles. This muscular independence, which should be one of the main objectives, favors that firmness of the fingers necessary to support the entire apparatus of the large muscles without tension. At this point, the cantabile and legato develop very well. Therefore, I suggest playing the melody quite sincerely forte, trying to learn how to "dualize" the ability to gravitate with the hand. It is evident that Bach is an excellent diet for this... starting from the two- and three-voice inventions. The adagio you are studying is only apparently easy. You must shift, as Nancy well suggested in other words, the weight towards the outside of the hand, i.e., onto the melody. As if all the notes of the melody acted as "pivots" for the hand (perhaps this is not a very orthodox explanation, but I believe it conveys the idea). This is my thought. Happy studying
Let's not exaggerate. Maybe I said too much. I am sure you can do a good job! Above all, have fun and sing within yourself. You will see that you will find the legato-cantabile!
The cantabile is more useful to sing out loud to Gould though
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nancy
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Reply 8 by nancy
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521
Maestro Ferrarelli gave you extremely precious suggestions.... don't get discouraged...
it is true, as Antares says... I also meant singing and singing out loud... then of course if you have someone in front of you it can be embarrassing and you must still do it inside yourself. If you assimilate and make the singability of the theme your own, the hand will automatically try to give more support to the notes that outline it by using the fingers playing them as pivots (a beautiful image suggested by Maestro Ferrarelli) or as hooks into the keyboard, leaving the other fingers free and light. The weight shifts automatically to the right or left depending on the finger you are singing with... whether it's the 5th, 4th, or 1st. Over time it will become natural for you and you will be able to highlight even more difficult central voices.... making pieces with polyphony very intriguing.... and you will be able to make even very personal interpretative choices. Happy studying!!!!!
Then I will sing to Gould ahahah! The fact is that you talk about it almost as if it were something that comes naturally, but for me (in life in general, alas) things never come "naturally," which is why I often look for the more brainy/convoluted path...
Thank you Nancy. Sometimes one risks "saying too much". One shouldn't take everything "literally", but as an "image". Reason, yes, but then naturalize. Dear Anthos, you must not be discouraged. Know that even when I was very young, I was very analytical and believed that everything had to start from deep examination. But this worked against me and, for example, did not develop my speed reading. My teacher, a great student of F. Bacardi and A. Casella, one day—and not just once—raised her voice telling me: "read just to read". That is: "sometimes don't ask yourself"... "don't always analyze"... in short, don't create mental "superstructures" that could be an obstacle. And then the famous phrases... "the less you do, the more you do"... or as the director has the foolish protagonist Forrest Gump say: "To win at ping-pong, you just have to send the ball to the other side".......Now, reading this post, you have a completely reversed image of what I said previously... but it is only apparently so! You need both! The Great G. Verdi used to say: "Learn the rules and then forget them"... in the sense that one must return to studying the details, the passages, the harmonies, the qualities of sound, etc., but then assimilate everything as if it belonged to our nature and let oneself go a little. This coming and going, in and out of analysis, I believe will help you achieve good results. Music suggests everything to us: rhythm, sound, technique. ...Well, this time I've spoken too much as well. ...the beast loses its hair but not its habit, even if my barber says otherwise! Happy studying!
I am now reading this interesting post... Learning weight technique is a MUST! Anyone who plays without utilizing weight must give up the cantabile, and the cantabile is practically that element that makes the interpretations of Horowitz, Rubinstein, etc., seem, how should I put it... "Magical". Without the cantabile, all this magic is lost.
Initially, it is not easy to get proficient with this technique, but over time it becomes natural and the cantabile comes out just as we have it in our heads without too many problems.
I was speaking privately some time ago with a forum member who was asking me for advice specifically on the cantabile and weight technique. I recorded a short video for him that, with his permission, I can send to you.
Many also believe that it is enough to focus solely on the cantabile performance in the right hand, whereas a preliminary study with hands separate will make you understand how important the cantabile is in the left hand as well.
In short, there would be so much to discuss, but this is certainly not the right place to do so. For certain things, one needs a teacher.
But certainly. What Simone says is right! Both hands must be well prepared and capable of developing the cantabile. Rubinstein always tells in a video, which I believe you will be able to find, how he performed—certainly not diligently in New York—Chopin's Etude op. 25 no. 11. In the video, he says he performed the right hand negligently, but with great evidence and control in the left. The audience went wild and did not even properly evaluate the poor execution of the right hand. The "cantabile" in that case had taken command!!!!. With this, I would like to say that it is worth starting from the etude with hands separate: one will certainly discover the importance of legato in both the right and left hands and how much emphasis to give to one hand relative to the other.
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stefano
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Reply 14 by stefano
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205
But why don't you post the public video for everyone? I am also interested in this weight thing... If it can be done...
I made a new one so we don't have to ask for permission around. Obviously, the video does not claim to teach how to play with weight, but only to provide some examples and explain what it is by comparing playing without and with weight. I deliberately exaggerated certain things and I had to play on the digital piano (I recorded the video last night and couldn't play on the acoustic one). Certainly, on the acoustic piano we could have taken more care with the nuances, but for the purpose of the video, you will see that it is clearly understood even on the digital one.
Thanks Simone, I found the exercise to be done on the piano lid really... enlightening! Thank you also for playing on the digital piano, you really cheered me up. In fact, due to personal problems, I will only be able to afford an acoustic in a few years, and I must admit that I always have great inferiority complexes compared to wealthier pianists who can afford better quality actions. Moreover, I have to change my digital soon because my Korg SP-250 died and I am looking towards a Kawai ES-100. Anyway, thanks again, you are an example to me, and sorry for the off-topic!
Well! I naturally agree with Simone's beautiful video which illustrates weight technique and more. The transfer of weight from one finger to another is very clear, which I believe is the basis of the cantabile. I do not think that without a sincere and clear perception of the support of the fingers, one can build a secure technique. Naturally, as Simone always rightly emphasizes, everything must be followed by a Teacher who, being close to the student, can monitor how all this happens. Some of my Teachers used to say that good sound quality and good quality in its continuity tell us if we are correctly transferring these principles to the keyboard. Acquiring a "own" sound gives the pianist a true pianistic and artistic identity. He is "recognizable" through "his" sound. He "speaks" and "expresses himself" through the "diction" of his sound.
