Morton Feldman and Western music

scelsi wrote:

has roots a bit different from the European ones.

... for sure the approach of his studies was not 10 years of counterpoint

Nothing wrong with that, but study paths leave their sediments

Xenakis wrote:

... surely the setting of his studies was not 10 years of counterpoint

Nothing wrong with that, but study paths leave their sediments

thanks for the answer... but would you mind explaining a bit more to me?

i.e.... do you mean that his music is more superficial than European music?

Not at all, rather I make it a matter of "influence" in the sense that, with the absence of purely contrapuntal studies, the nature of the music must necessarily be different.

"Different" is a characterizing factor and not a merit or a flaw

But Xenakis, if you listen closely to Anton Webern's Bagatelles, Op. 9...

you will see that in one of them the seed of what Feldman typically does is already present

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How old is the piece you proposed, Scelsi?

Feldman's piano and string quartet is from 1985, so it's from his late period, and in my opinion one of his most interesting...

in effect, I agree both with what xen says (indeed Feldman has a different background from the "classical" European one, without making this a merit or a flaw... or at least it has positive sides and let's call them negative sides...) and with what Valchiria says because it may seem incredible but I also find very strong affinities between Feldman and Webern.

We did 30, let's do 31 ... given the alias you bring, it wouldn't be bad to also have a listen to

Giacinto Scelsi : String Quartet no. 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYd8gbWIHGU

to make the proper comparisons

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Valchiria wrote:

if you listen closely to Anton Webern's Bagatelles, op. 9...

you will see that in one of them the seed of what Feldman typically does is already present

... do you mean the IV? Because in the first one, for example, Webern aims for something else

mmm...

i see the kinship with Webern. there are certain passages that, when decontextualized, it is not so easy to attribute to one or the other in op. 10.

but with Scelsi, where is the kinship?

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Webern was an extremely important musician because he contributed in many ways to "undermining" the narrative course, and in particular, the bagatelles were the first work that someone felt obliged to introduce with a presentation (see Schoenberg). Music alone is no longer enough; it is necessary for someone to say: “attention, this is not an ordinary piece, expect something different, etc.

This is because, starting with this work, the axis began to shift from the ear toward conceptuality, and in particular, Webern employed various techniques—see the extreme differentiation of the first bagatelle and, for example, repetition, which can be found precisely in the fourth. Aside from the sonority, which perhaps is somewhat akin to Feldman.

These elements of Webern's were radicalized in the second half of the 20th century by several composers; thus, repetitiveness becomes a characterizing and extremized factor. The funerary stele of good Scelsi involves a repetition of 43 times of the same module, an approach very distant from good Ferneyhough, whom we spoke about recently and who instead radicalized extreme differentiation (in fact, he is a post-structuralist).

How does Feldman fit into this discussion? You find analogies between Feldman and Webern, great, but in your opinion, which specific characterizing factor introduced by Webern does he develop?

Differentiation, Enchantment vs. repetition, speed hyperparameter, etc.?

webern is a deeply European composer. and from this tradition and historical awareness he never even uproots himself, no matter how much he "undermines"... whatever that means to undermine. he is always within this river.

whereas feldman, I see him as being completely outside of this river.

so, all in all, it seems superficial to me to speak of parallels between webern and feldman based on technical issues like repetition, tempo, etc. etc. I don't think one can make a comparison and a parallelism between webern and feldman of the same type as can be made, for example, between brahms and mahler. brahms and mahler, unlike feldman and webern, live within the same river... they are almost one being the continuation of the other... father and son (the sense of family to me is one of the most characterizing elements of European culture in any field...), another example of comparison within the same river is that between mahler and webern.

but the level of kinship between feld [feldman] and webern is of a completely different nature. it is true that the two had some contact, feld had listened to webern's music (it is said that the meeting between feld and cage was precisely at a concert with music by webern... and the culprit was... eheheh), but the Americans found themselves having to start "from scratch", in great contrast to the Europeans... schonberg knew something about the burden of tradition hehehe, as xen recalls, composition courses last 10 years here, there is a reason for it, and it is precisely this long musical tradition, so precious but also quite cumbersome.

feldman was for a long time passionate about carpets, so much so that he became a collector. well, I find that the kinship to be sought between webern and feldman is more similar to this passion for carpets.

instead, I struggle to see the parallelism between scelsi and feldman. ok, there are repetitions but... even bach's passacaglia for organ is "repetitive"... it is also true that scelsi is a somewhat anti-academic and non-systematic composer... so he situates himself in a position a bit... let's say on the margins of the river, to continue the previous metaphor... but I don't know... "instinctively" I don't really perceive this parallelism...

and mea culpa, eh!

scelsi wrote:

true also that Scelsi is a somewhat anti-academic and non-systematic composer...

...for which, even if living in a different continent from Feldman, counterpoint will have left him little.

Xenakis wrote:

...therefore, even if lived in a continent different from Feldman, counterpoint will have left him little

ehehe
the Feldman-Scelsi comparison continues to not communicate much to me...

you can't just take every "anti-academic" as a comparison

The comparison doesn't necessarily mean they say, they are similar... it could be that they say dissimilar. The fact is that they all started from a single point: the fact that Feldman knew Webern and Scelsi was an adept of the Second Viennese School (not to mention the fact that he traveled extensively throughout Europe) can more or less explain a lot... and yet the results of both in their maturity are what we have heard.

It must also be said that Scelsi is also a man between Western and Eastern culture, so he is another point of comparison between what is properly Western and German-oriented and other realities.

The contrast enhances the colors

PS

The passacaglia is not a radicalization of repetition, it is not enchantment (which tends toward contemplation) but is simply an ostinato.

Perhaps it could be useful to compare works by different composers from the '80s and see how they each took a different stance towards music.

Maybe something interesting will emerge also in relation to Feldman.

Frank wrote:

It must also be said that Scelsi is also a man halfway between Western and Eastern culture, which makes him another point of comparison between what is properly Western and Germano-centric and other realities.

Interesting, indeed the topic perhaps has not yet addressed the discussion regarding Feldman and the European world... what do you think?

has anyone ever heard "in search of an orchestration" by feldman or seen the score?

I like Feldman very much; I had a period where I listened to him for quite some time and I really like his silence. Just a short while ago, the Torino Quartet played his quartet for 6 consecutive hours.... Certainly, an educational background different from the European school is a good starting point to seek an "explanation" for his poetics, after which one would need to dig deeper; I am attaching a link

http://www.cnvill.net/mfsani2.htm

That said, I believe that affinities can be seen, but it can also be "dangerous" to see them... Decontextualizing a sound event and questioning its origin can lead to unexpected results; try decontextualizing the final chords of Berg's Violin Concerto and then ask who the author is...

I was wondering if there is anyone who feels up to suggesting some "methodology" of approach to the analysis of Feldman's scores...