Musical agnosia

I didn't know about the existence of this pathology, let alone that Ravel was affected by it.

I found this link for those who might not know it:

http://www.musicus1.it/psicologia_della_musica.html

CONGENITAL DISORDERS AND ACQUIRED DISORDERS IN MUSIC

Once, music was studied as a cultural phenomenon: now instead - after many studies at the psychological and neuroscience levels over the last twenty years - it has fully entered the realm of complex cognitive processes.
Among congenital disorders we find congenital amusia, defined by some as tone deafness. It is not a consequence of a pathology, but is typical of people who demonstrate no musical ability, sound recognition, or rather, recognition of the pitch of musical sounds.
Among acquired disorders, there is also a form of acquired amusia linked to the congenital one, deriving from an anomalous development of certain brain structures indispensable for musical processing.
However, the most well-known and peculiar disorder of musical processing remains musical agnosia, a disorder related to lesions in the temporal cortex of both hemispheres (Peretz, 1996). Those affected by this disorder are unable to recognize sounds and melodies, although the auditory channel is intact. Some subjects are surprisingly able to recognize a wrong note in a melody, but cannot recognize the melody itself.
Musical agnosia is therefore a very selective condition, as other types of noises (e.g., passing traffic) are normally recognized.

The discussion about "ACQUIRED DISORDERS IN MUSIC" worries me a little... in short, that they can be acquired...

Some subjects are surprisingly able to recognize a wrong note in a melody, but cannot recognize the melody itself.

...Ravel?

of composers no but it seems at least 2 US presidents, Darwin and Freud, were affected by it...... it seems....

Aspirante wrote:

I am a little worried about the subject of "ACQUIRED DISORDERS IN MUSIC"... in short, that they are acquirable...

Some subjects are surprisingly able to recognize a wrong note in a melody, but cannot recognize the melody itself.

...Ravel?

Ravel acquired it, if I remember correctly, following an accident that led to his death some years later. I don't know if he wrote his final works with this pathology already advanced.

I would be interested in understanding if there are clinical cases (like those described by Sacks) regarding known or unknown composers.

antares86 wrote:

the composers no but it seems at least 2 US presidents, Darwin and Freud, were affected by it...... it seems....

they say, but I believe they are marginal cases, also because in general it seems to be correlated with dyslexia...

I have no idea and moreover it is not even my field of research, I admit that my competence in this field is extremely limited

In "The Singing Neanderthals" by Steven Mithen, there is a chapter dedicated to amusia and its variants, but almost all the cited cases refer to people indicated only by initials... regarding Ravel, among other things, Mithen speaks of a particular type of amusia. Ravel was still able to play some things; the real problem was writing the compositions he had "in his head." It seems, however, that he was able to find errors in his own transcriptions if played. There is a bibliographic reference to such T. Alajouanine

thallo wrote:

in "The Singing Neanderthals" by Steven Mithen, there is a chapter dedicated to amusia and its variants, but almost all the cited cases refer to people identified only by initials... regarding Ravel, among other things, Mithen speaks of a particular type of amusia. Ravel was still able to play some things; the real problem was writing the compositions he had "in his head". It seems, however, that he was able to find errors in his own transcriptions if they were played. There is a bibliographic reference to such T. Alajouanine

thanks for the indication; in fact, it's not that I am interested in names and surnames, but only in the effects of the pathology. Can you tell me if the indicated text discusses this aspect extensively? In short, just as for Ravel the difficulty was writing the music he had in his head, I wonder if there are clinically known disorders such that a subject who writes music actually writes something "different" from what they imagine. Do disorders of this kind exist in handwriting, language, drawing, etc.? I was wondering if there are documented clinical cases regarding music.

as far as I know there are many. In the book I was talking about, some things are mentioned, but surely a good medical encyclopedia can give you specific bibliographic references. Maybe also a search on amazon with "amusia" as a keyword

Bianca wrote:

they say, but I believe they are marginal cases, also because it generally seems to be related to dyslexia...

I am not an expert but the symptoms, in my opinion, almost, share a commonality...

The issue is indeed interesting and currently debated. Some argue that the areas of the brain dedicated to language and music are clearly separate, others that they are not, or at least if they are, they have a very strong correlation. I read about the case of a composer affected by aphasia following an accident, who nevertheless maintained his musical ability to compose. Sacks reports the case of a musician who, despite having completely lost short-term memory, remained able to play perfectly as before. The case of Ravel, on the other hand, is different precisely because he also became dyslexic following the accident. Therefore, some argue that although musical specialization is typically localized in the right hemisphere (especially for non-musicians), while verbal specialization is in the left hemisphere, these are nonetheless in close connection with each other through a continuous exchange of information.

Regardless of these very interesting aspects, my question was more specific. That is, to what extent and in what terms it is possible for an individual to perceive music "incorrectly." This curiosity arises from the fact that I listened to a "composition" so absurd that it made me doubt. The fact is that the person in question does not recognize the "difficulties" that are pointed out to them. A bit like if someone asked them to draw a circle and after pointing out that what they did was a square, they still didn't realize it and continued to see it as a circle. I have not yet found clinical cases of this kind.

She is not a musician and she is not referring to amusia, but in relation to the discussion of short-term memory, I report:

http://webapps.jhu.edu/jhuniverse/featured/puzzles_of_the_brain/

Regarding the difficulties, what parameters did this person have to respect? A circle, to be a circle, has its own definition; in relation to the music you are talking about, were there rules to be followed?

Sacrosanct observation. And perhaps that is exactly the point. But I wouldn't know how to explain it. The fact is that those afflicted by this kind of pathology are convinced they are drawing a circle even if they are not drawing one at all, and when it is presented to them, they recognize it as a circle. Therefore, regardless of whether or not one can give it a definition, they perceive something in an "erroneous" way. What escapes me is how this can be brought back and verified in music (aside from intonation defects, and the like, which are easily studied).

I feel compelled to recommend reading the aforementioned book, "The Singing Neanderthals". It does not deal specifically with amusia, but it addresses many problems between music and language in a very beautiful, "popular science" and philosophically intriguing way. Your questions, however, are very specific, and I continue to think that a more technical bibliography might be useful...

I will only say one thing. When you speak of conviction ("... is convinced he is drawing a circle") I would set aside the generalization. That is, here we are not talking about schizophrenics who confuse reality with imagination; we are talking about a deficit, often "acquired". Also in the aforementioned book, Mithen often specifies that patients suffering from various types of amusia, dyslexia, and aphasia are CONSCIOUS of their discomfort, their errors, and their pathology. Obviously, we are talking about a critical consciousness. That is, if a dyslexic person stops and thinks about it, they KNOW they have reading problems. But even knowing this, they do not stop to read every written word carefully for fear of missing something important.

I have traits of dyscalculia. It is a complex issue, but I have problems with numbers. And I am aware of it :-) but in stressful situations, my mind is simply selective. If you tell me something, I am able to remember everything except the numbers in that sentence, and this despite knowing that I have problems with numbers and implementing a series of strategies to memorize them and deal with them. Someone who does not know how to draw circles and KNOWS they cannot draw circles, when they have to draw one, will probably take a compass. The problem is when they have to write an "o" and don't think about it, and something comes out that is incomprehensible to everyone else.

thallo wrote:

I feel like recommending that you read the aforementioned book, "The Singing Neanderthals". It doesn't deal specifically with amusia, but it addresses many problems between music and language in a very beautiful, "popular science" and philosophically intriguing way. Your questions, however, are very specific, and I continue to think that a more technical bibliography might be useful...

I will only say one thing. When you speak of conviction ("... is convinced he is drawing a circle") I would set aside the generalization. That is, here we are not talking about schizophrenics who confuse reality with imagination; we are talking about a deficit, often "acquired". Also in the aforementioned book, Mithen often specifies that patients suffering from various types of amusia, dyslexia, and aphasia are CONSCIOUS of their discomfort, their errors, and their pathology. Obviously, we are talking about a critical consciousness. That is, a dyslexic person, if they stop and think about it, KNOWS they have reading problems. But even knowing this, they do not stop to read every written word carefully for fear of missing something important.

I have traits of dyscalculia. It's a complex issue, but I have problems with numbers. And I am aware of it :-) but in stressful situations, my mind is simply selective. If you tell me something, I am able to remember everything except the numbers in that sentence, and this despite knowing that I have problems with numbers and implementing a series of strategies to memorize them and deal with them. Someone who doesn't know how to draw circles and KNOWS they don't know how to draw circles, when they have to draw one, will probably use a compass. The problem is when they have to write an "o" and don't think about it, and something comes out that is incomprehensible to everyone else.

There are many forms and many levels of agnosia. In the most severe and pathological forms, what is missing is precisely the recognition and awareness of the error. Of course, in forms of dyslexia, for example, there is awareness in most cases. What interests me, however, are precisely the most critical cases, because often it is precisely the limits and exceptions that explain and give meaning to normality. As soon as I find the time, I will get the text you indicated. As you say, a clinical bibliography would be useful to me, but I fear it might be difficult to find one that fits my needs. Anyway, if I find something, I will update you all.

Bianca wrote:

As you say, a clinical bibliography would be useful to me, but I fear it will be difficult to find what suits my needs. Anyway, if I find something, I will update you.

From what I know, amusia is very fashionable in music psychology texts. The English Wikipedia page is full of bibliographic citations, and if citations are found on Wikipedia, it generally means that the literature on the subject is truly vast. I understand that you are interested in a very specific part of the topic, but in these cases, it is difficult to get straight to the point immediately.

Among the various clinical cases I am browsing through, I report one that is quite curious. A group of neurologists reports (1979) a case of a composer and conductor (the name is obviously omitted) who suffered an infarct in the right hemisphere of the brain, losing every type of emotional response to music and consequently his ability to compose "meaningfully". This disorder, however, only concerned tonal music, while he maintained intact the ability to compose serial music.

I would say that the case, so far the only one of its kind I have found, could raise interesting questions.

...it is practically the scientific demonstration that serial music is devoid of emotion... otherwise, as with tonal music, he would not have managed to combine anything...

Interesting.

ttw wrote:

...it is practically the scientific proof that serial music is devoid of emotion...

To tell the truth, it is only the scientific proof that this conductor/composer, when writing serial music, was unable to imagine how it sounded.

Obviously, "proof" in quotation marks, because no one—much less a scientist—can deduce a general principle from a particular case in such terms.

Generally, those called "counter-examples" serve precisely to refute a theory and are often the very basis upon which to found a new one (scientific literature is full of such cases, while regarding the philosophical aspect, one can start from the post-Popperian epistemological debate).

Aside from this, even in terms of common sense, general principles are usually deduced from particular cases (this is called induction), before the reverse.

That being said, I too would be cautious about drawing easy conclusions from a clinical case, which, however, poses a series of problems that would be superficial to underestimate just because we fear the result.