Non "conventional" fingerings

carletto wrote:

...is it a numbering for 2 hands, to be clear, reaching 10 or what?

No, Mozzati defines them as non "traditional" fingerings and they were conceived to obtain certain sound effects, both to facilitate technical execution; besides 8 (which I will detail), you can also find:

6 - extended thumb joined with the palm and the index finger also extended

7 - pinky and ring finger joined (extremely effective for increasing grip on the black keys, especially when performing octave passages)

8 - thumb sideways across two keys

9 - index and middle finger joined

It might be useful, to gain familiarity with these fingerings, to include them in combinations for studying falls.

Mozzati teaches (Mozzati docet)

Aside from the specific text, it is very convenient and interesting to know these possibilities

....or it is music from another planet......

sorry but I reaaaally wanted to write this bullshit....

Hi

F

Feliciano wrote:

sorry but I reaaaally wanted to write this piece of shit....

...but the numbering from 1 to 10 was nice .... .... ...

One just had to establish whether from right to left or from left towards right

Feliciano wrote:

....or it is music from another planet......

excuse me but I really wanted to toooo write this piece of shit....

Hi

F

But you are absolutely right!

One must complicate life when, to write, I don't know, "thumb upside down on two keys," it would be enough to do like normal people do, that is, joining two sounds with a horizontal square bracket, with a 1 (the thumb number, the one and only, damn... ) on top...

...I write 8 and save the parentheses

I really had no idea about this so I was imagining science fiction things... anyway, very clear Frank, thanks...

Frank wrote:

...I write 8 and save the parentheses

You can write whatever you want, but while you are saving parentheses, you will have to provide a legend to explain what that 8 means.

See for yourself what is more convenient for you...

PS mhh, then, where do you write the 8? On which of the two sounds you play?

In reality, I know what 8 means, I don't need to create a legend for myself... it is enough to say two words to the recipient of the suggestion (if you were thinking of a student, in fact, I think a small outline is enough for Carletto).

If the thumb plays incorrectly on two keys, it means we are at least facing a bichord, so 8 is more than sufficient... just like writing 5 or 1

... probably those coming from Mozzati's school have more confidence in these things, and indeed playing even the same key with two fingers instead of one can modify the timbre.

Frank wrote:

Actually, I know what 8 means, I don't need to create a legend for myself...

Legend, Frank, legend anyway; I thought you were referring to a piece that you write as a composer, intended for a performer x: in that case the legend would be absolutely necessary, because I, for example, have never found that type of indication (not even in music from the '1900s, and I have played it, I assure you I have played it...)

Frank wrote:

e basta dire 2 parole al destinatario del suggerimento (se stavi pensando ad un allievo, infatti penso che a Carletto basti il prospettino che ho passato).

Of course, so that means if he encountered that indication in a text that does not carry the legend, the legend is necessary...

Frank wrote:

Se il pollice suona di traverso su due tasti, vuol dire che siamo almeno di fronte ad un bicordo, per cui 8 è più che sufficiente...come scrivere 5 o 1

Frank, aside from the fact that 8 "is more than sufficient" if one knows what it means (still reasoning from the perspective of a composer writing for someone: if you write the fingering for yourself, you could even write 27 and no one cares), but if, suppose, instead of being as easy as you make it, the chord were a six-note chord, say mi-fa-lab-do-re-fa, for example, it would be evident that mi-fa must be played with a single finger (unless one has a hand so large as to be able to play do-re with 4 and mi-fa with 1 and 2, but it would still be very complicated); then what do you do? Where do you write 8?

Frank wrote:

... probabilmente chi viene dalla scuola di Mozzati ha più confidenza su queste cose, ed effettivamente suonare anche uno stesso tasto con due dita al posto di una può modificare il timbro.

Of course, Mozzati didn't invent playing two fingers on a single key, nor the thumb played sideways. He only devised that way (complicated, unusual, and unknown to most) of fingering. The finger pairs 1,2 and 4,5 are used frequently, even 1,2,3 (but only on the black keys, because on the white keys it is almost impossible for three fingers to fit (almost). Come to think of it, I see that the number for thumb-index and middle combined is missing, but 10 would be complicated... what do you say about 92???"}

It reads ... a typo that resurfaces from time to time

Now I understand, I wasn't referring to one of my own compositions. I was looking at it from Carletto's point of view, who I think studies piano technique and not composition. Anyway, the text I cited is for the use and consumption of pianists; it is called “Esercizi di Tecnica pianisitica” [Piano Technique Exercises]

http://www.woodbrass...ano-p98437.html

The idea of using this convention in one of my pieces crossed my mind; eventually, I would put a note in the preface because I know perfectly well that it is not based on a unified convention and in no critical revision do numbers from 6 to 9 appear... the fact remains that a piano school (there are many) makes practical use of it, and we are discussing it right here because someone might have come across a score with an 8 marked in pencil.

Carlos wrote:

but if, let's say, instead of being as easy as you make it, the chord were a six-note chord, for example mi-fa-lab-do-re-fa, it would be obvious that mi-fa must be played with a single finger (unless one has a hand so large as to be able to play do-re with the 4th and mi-fa with the 1st and 2nd, but that would still be very complicated); so what do you do? Where do you write 8?

Look, the easiest case is precisely the 6-note chord, because necessarily one finger must play 2 keys. My saying “at least one bichord” was only to provide a scalable and unambiguous definition.

In any case, I would write 8 where you would put 1; the rest is "calculated" ... I (but not only I) tend to mark only the necessary fingerings.

Carlos wrote:

Of course, Mozzati didn't exactly invent using two fingers on a single key :De, nor even the thumb sideways. He only devised that way (complicated, unusual, and unknown to most) of fingering. The finger pairs 1,2 and 4,5 are used frequently, also 1,2,3 (but only on the black keys, because on the white keys it is almost impossible for three fingers to fit (almost)).

... even he knows it wasn't his invention; in fact, he candidly says that he drew from Carlo Vidusso.

In my first post I wrote:

> Setting aside the specific text, it is very convenient and interesting to know these possibilities

precisely to emphasize the expressive possibilities of the "how" rather than any potential definitions. However, if someone asks about "finger 8," one cannot refrain from mentioning Mozzati (mine was a very explicit citation), who, moreover, has produced an interesting piano technique method and contributed to the training of good performers.

Frank wrote:

... that is not his own invention, even he knows it; in fact, he candidly says that he drew from Carlo Vidusso.

I was referring to Liszt...

Carlos wrote:

I was referring to Liszt...

You see Carlos, I continue to refer to the convention reported in a text by Mozzati... you to the technicality, which I appreciate regardless of whoever "sponsored" it (as stated in the first post).

My intention was to say that surely even before Vidusso began using those numbers in fingering ... whether he then gave his own coding to a consolidated performance practice is another matter, whether Mozzati felt obliged to report it in one of his texts is yet another and ... here... the question was quite clear and if I may, actually even the answer ...

Since I was completely unaware of these techniques

Carlos wrote:

I was referring to Liszt...

How does he (Liszt) indicate them? Are there other possibilities besides those mentioned between you and Frank?

carletto wrote:

Since I was completely unaware of these techniques

How does he (Liszt) indicate them? Are there other possibilities besides those mentioned between you and Frank?

No, actually the most convenient and intuitive thing is precisely to indicate fingerings using "conventional" numbers; so for example, the thumb used on two keys is indicated, as I was saying, with the number 1 and a symbol joining the two notes; two fingers on the same key are simply indicated with the corresponding numbers close together (if you write 45 on a key, no one will doubt that you meant to indicate the 45th finger).

Chopin also used another device, from one black key to the consecutive white key, which was to slide the same finger to obtain a very particular legato. He indicated this fingering by repeating the corresponding number on both keys, linking them (as two notes are linked, so to speak), so, for example, 2_2 with a small slur (which I don't know how to do) instead of the hyphen.

I have naturally understood Frank's point perfectly, and my irony is directed at those who complicate something that already exists and is clear in itself, whether it be Mozzati or anyone else. If a technique does not exist and someone invents it, they must naturally devise the appropriate indication, but if a technique already exists with its clear and, I would say almost "self-evident," indication, I don't understand the reason for complicating it. For example: the "Bartók pizzicato" which was devised by Bartók himself, and which consists of plucking the string with the fingers of the left hand: it is indicated with a small cross on the note (+) and no one would ever dream of indicating the Bartók pizzicato in a technique book with another symbol, because it would be necessary to explain what it means and everyone would think "but excuse me: wasn't this indicated with the cross? Why change?". I hope I have explained myself clearly

Carlos wrote:

... For example: the "Bartók pizzicato" which was devised by Bartók himself, and which consists of plucking the string with the fingers of the left hand: it is indicated with a small cross on the note (+) and no one would ever dream of indicating the Bartók pizzicato with another symbol in a technique book, because it would be necessary to explain what it means and everyone would think "but excuse me: wasn't this indicated with the cross? Why change it?".

Forgive me, Carlos, if I contradict you, but the "Bartók-style pizzicato" is something quite different from left-hand pizzicato.

Left-hand pizz., which is indeed indicated with a cross, was already used by Paganini and I believe it was invented by him.

The Bartók-style pizz., obviously invented by Bartók himself, consists of pulling the string in a direction perpendicular to the keyboard to make it snap forcefully against the wood, producing that characteristic sound-noise; and it is marked with a small circle and a vertical dash starting from its center and going upwards.

robertoaltieri wrote:

Forgive me, Carlos, if I contradict you, but the "Bartok pizzicato" is something quite different from left-hand pizzicato.

Left-hand pizz., which is specifically indicated with a small cross, was already used by Paganini and I believe it was invented by him.

The Bartok pizz., obviously invented by Bartok himself, consists of pulling the string in a direction perpendicular to the keyboard to make it snap forcefully against the wood, producing that characteristic sound-noise; and it is marked with a small circle and a vertical dash starting from its center and going upwards.

Darn... I humbly apologize for the error. You are right: I made a bit of a mess.

Thank you for the clarification.

Aaah...! I know this thing!!! )) but due to a completely fortuitous circumstance (not because of "cultural background"). As a teenager, I had a rockabilly band, and a double bassist who also played classical music left us a bass line for a demo while he was away... I (who had to play it in his place) didn't understand what he meant and ended up playing it "normally" (on an electro-acoustic fretless bass) and him, upon returning from his commitments, listening to the demo, was quite taken aback... Then he realized that I couldn't have known what the hell he meant by that accident of "hitting the mark" (we even said to each other "what is it, a chauvinistic symbol"...? And "this guy can't be misogynistic, can he...?") written in big letters at the very beginning. He was strange, to say the least: thin and lanky, a red Garibaldi-style shirt, early-style Paoli glasses, and teased hair... A.D. 1981. The "Stray Cats" were in fashion. ))