Octave Tremolo (broken)

Be patient a little longer. Look again at the rotation. I will remember to do these two examples. Anyway, I'll give you a preview of something. Still fingers and rotation (supination and pronation with participation of the forearm). Even in the Pathetique, one must think a lot about the bass note and play the alternating octave note as a consequence. The thumb plays by living off the surplus of the pronation movement. Everything becomes the same, with still fingers and minimal effort. The accents dictate the major appoggiaturas to us, just as the right hand suggests the "encounters".

pianoexpert wrote:

Be patient a little longer. Revisit rotation. I will remember to do these two examples. Anyway, I'll preview something. Still fingers and rotation (supination and pronation with the participation of the forearm). Even in the Pathetique, one must think a lot about the bass note and play the alternating octave note as a consequence. The thumb plays by living off the surplus of the pronation movement. Everything remains the same, with still fingers and minimal effort. The accents dictate the major weightings, just as the right hand suggests the "encounters."

I have become convinced that the pinky is the key.

It must be arched as little as possible, straight or almost straight, as if it were devoid of phalanges.

In fact, when the hand is in the extended position, if one attempts to curl the pinky, a position of tension is assumed and therefore should be avoided.

What do you think?

Broken octaves can be resolved with rotation: fingers steady, wrist flexible, but not too much, connected to the forearm. Ideally, the energy should come from the shoulder. Passing through the arm and the forearm to reach the steady fingers, rotating the hand as if there were a central axis passing through the third finger. I advise practicing as illustrated in the next video that will be released on Mozart's Sonata K330.

pianoexpert wrote:

Broken octaves can be resolved with rotation: fingers steady, wrist flexible, but not too much, connected to the forearm. The ideal would be to let the energy come from the shoulder. Crossing through the arm and the forearm and arriving at the steady fingers, rotating the hand as if there were a central axis passing through the third finger. I advise practicing as illustrated in the next video that will be released on Mozart's Sonata K330.

Thank you, crystal clear, as always, without smoke and ambiguity.

pianoexpert wrote:

Broken octaves can be resolved with rotation: fingers steady, wrist flexible, but not too much, connected to the forearm. Ideally, the energy should come from the shoulder. Passing through the arm and the forearm and reaching the steady fingers, rotating the hand as if there were a central axis passing through the third finger. I advise practicing as illustrated in the next video that will be released on Mozart's Sonata K330.

I am trying to ask you a great favor, but I believe it interests the many people who sooner or later in their lives as pianists face the 3rd movement of the "Moonlight".

I am asking if you can illustrate this passage from minute 3:21 to 4:22.

I believe it is the most challenging minute of this piece, the key point (at least for me).

It is difficult, in particular, to approach the section 3:57-4:22 with fluency.

It is very easy (for me) to stiffen up and struggle to complete it.

The link is the magnificent performance by Wilhelm Kempff (perhaps he also feels a bit of fatigue reaching the end? I wouldn't know):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqSulR9Fymg

Open content (youtube)

Hi tgdgit, I am a very small piano student and if I may suggest, you might want to listen to and watch (though perhaps you have already done so) Claudio Arrau tackling this sonata?

Personally, I believe that his exposition of the musical content is clearer than Kempff's, and this can be of help in identifying useful and effective technical aspects; anyway, I leave the floor to Maestro Ferrarelli.

Bye

Gianni

Open content (youtube)

Both videos are beautiful. The sonata is difficult, despite those who claim it is "easy." Kempff is slightly struggling, but even Arrau experiences some "minor difficulty." In any case, both are great because they give a different and personal imprint to this sonata, which we listen to from many pianists always in a different "understanding." By changing the interpretation and especially the tempo of the third movement, the difficulty changes. The sixteenth notes (quartine) should have little accentuation, but this makes them sound more secure and clearer. Cortot used to say that the chords after the ascent of the sixteenth notes should arrive like two "lightning bolts" in a clear sky! Therefore, the effect is better created if one saves energy and plays the sixteenth notes without force, but with clarity. It is useful to practice by moving rapidly to the position of each sixteenth note as if one were playing the chords. Both pianists do this, even if it visually seems to us that they move the hand progressively note by note. It is the mental vision that must help us find the right positions, quickly and in advance, so that the fingers are on the right keys as soon as possible. Note the inevitable rotation of the strong "broken" passage (high wrist). Thus, rotation must be used in the octave tremolo in the bass at the point that fatigues you. Even when the theme, in the development, is exposed by the left hand, the right hand must play calmly with rotation. When one needs to reinforce, it is advisable to raise the wrist a little and make it less flexible with the forearm. The shoulder will help the "tiring" movement. Also, the chords of the episode before the recapitulation, accompanied by the broken octaves in the bass, are legato by suspending the arm and forearm and using the shoulder. That is, the fingers are the last to leave the keys and the entire finger-hand-forearm-arm apparatus is moved by the shoulder. The wrist must be flexible and allow the hand to "spring slowly." A very large hand can legato more with the fingers. Kempff does this a bit. The following staccato small chords, which repeat and imitate the previous pattern of legato chords, can create "contact" problems with the keyboard. They should not be thought of as too detached. A "non-legato" is sufficient. So we must, in my opinion, create a small and repetitive bouncing movement close to the keyboard; a movement obtained with a rather steady wrist. The bounce is created by the forearm. One should not think about the different position of the fingers on each small chord. They should be thought of as if the notes were always the same. I do not want to cause a "scandal," but at the beginning, it is better to think more about the movement than the notes. We will gradually realize that we are learning to "place" the right notes by prioritizing the correct repetitive "gesture," without modifying it. Pay attention to giving importance to weak accents; this will help. Naturally, no muscular rigidity, even if at first, while studying, we may sense a sound that is not quite appropriate.

In short, it is difficult to explain with words alone; I hope I have been helpful. Now, with these indications, let's try to review the video. Kempff shows us this passage, Arrau does not, but we can imagine it well.

If it happens, I will try to illustrate this difficult step of the sonata in a video

pianoexpert wrote:

The sonata is difficult, despite those who claim it is "easy".

Liszt places it in twenty-second place (out of 32) in his classification by order of difficulty (from easiest to hardest) ...preceded by Op. 27 no. 1 and followed by Op. 54

Frank wrote:

Liszt places it in twenty-second place (out of 32) in one of his classifications by order of difficulty (from easiest to hardest) ...preceded by the work Op. 27 no. 1 and followed by Op. 54

But which one are you referring to? The Moonlight one?

What classification is it?

Eagle wrote:

What classification is this?

I possess a heirloom where the title page says:

Edited by Franz Liszt

Newly revised by C. Kuhner

Bosworth Edition

Arranged according to difficulty

Here is the proposal from our beloved FL:

Op. 49 n. 2

Op. 49 n. 1

Op. 79

Op. 14 n. 2

Op. 14 n. 1

Op. 2 n. 1

Op. 10 n. 1

Op. 10 n. 2

Op. 2 n. 2

Op. 2 n. 3

Op. 10 n. 3

Op. 13

Op. 22

Op. 28

Op. 7

Op. 78

Op. 26

Op. 31 n. 3

Op. 31 n. 1

Op. 90

Op. 27 n. 1

Op. 27 n. 2

Op. 54

Op. 31 n. 2

Op. 53

Op. 81a

Op. 57

Op. 101

Op. 110

Op. 109

Op. 111

Op. 106

pianoexpert wrote:

Both videos are beautiful. The sonata is difficult, despite those who claim it is "easy". Kempff is slightly struggling, but even Arrau experiences some "minor difficulty". In any case, both are great, because they give a different and personal imprint to this sonata, which we listen to from many pianists always in a different "understanding". By changing the interpretation and especially the tempo of the third movement, the difficulty changes. The sixteenth notes (quartine) should have little accentuation, but this makes them more secure and clearer to the ear. Cortot used to say that the chords after the ascent of the sixteenth notes should arrive like two "lightning bolts" in a clear sky! Therefore, the effect is better created if one saves energy and plays the sixteenth notes without force, but with clarity. It is useful to practice by moving rapidly to the position of each sixteenth note as if one had to play chords. Both pianists do this, even if it visually seems to us that they move the hand progressively note by note. It is the mental vision that must help us find the right positions, quickly, in advance, so that the fingers are on the right keys as soon as possible. Note the inevitable rotation of the strong "broken" passage (high wrist). Thus, the rotation must be used in the octave tremolo in the bass at the point that fatigues you. Even when the theme, in the development, is exposed by the left hand, the right hand must play calmly in rotation. When one needs to reinforce, it is advisable to raise the wrist a little and make it less flexible with the forearm. The shoulder will help the "tiring" movement. Also, the chords of the episode before the recapitulation, accompanied by the broken octaves in the bass, are legato by suspending the arm and forearm and using the shoulder. That is, the fingers are the last to leave the keys and the entire finger-hand-forearm-arm apparatus is moved by the shoulder. The wrist must be flexible and allow the hand to "spring slowly". A very large hand can legato more with the fingers. Kempff does this a bit. The following small staccato chords, which repeat and imitate the previous pattern of legato chords, can create problems of "contact" with the keyboard. They should not be thought of as too detached. "Non-legato" is sufficient. So we must, in my opinion, create a small and repetitive bouncing movement, close to the keyboard; a movement obtained with a rather steady wrist. The bounce is created by the forearm. One should not think about the different position of the fingers on each small chord. They should be thought of as if the notes were always the same. I do not want to cause a "scandal", but at the beginning, it is better to think more about the movement than about the notes. We will gradually realize that we are learning to "put" the right notes by prioritizing the correct repetitive "gesture", without modifying it. Pay attention to giving importance to weak accents; this will help. Naturally, no muscular rigidity, even if at the beginning, while studying, we may sense a sound that is not quite appropriate.

In short, with words alone it is difficult to explain; I hope I have been useful. Now, with these indications, let's try to review the video. Kempff shows us this passage, Arrau does not, but we can imagine it well.

If it happens, I will try to illustrate this difficult step of the sonata in a Video.

Dearest Maestro, many thanks.

You are always very helpful and it is noticeable from your words that you truly put yourself into giving advice; you are a precious and rare resource.

You now agree with me on the intrinsic difficulty of the sonata; I too have found many who consider it "easy"; in fact, I will tell you, they consider the first movement truly difficult from an interpretative point of view, but, for the rest, they superficially consider the third movement to be of a 5th-year Conservatory difficulty, signifying its "ease".

Well, I would like to hear these "know-it-alls" play the third movement; instead, the most I see are two banal tips at extremely limited speed, which demonstrate nothing.

You can agree with me regarding interpretation, a subject on which one can never have the final word, but once interpreted "masterfully", if one does not resolve the third movement (for which I believe there are difficulties of varying degrees, rather than issuing a cutting judgment), playing it with the "certainty" it requires, what is there to play? Always and only the first movement, as many amateurs do when they are out of their depth?

Then, shall we talk about the second movement? No, and why? This too has its difficulty of an interpretative character, and a notable one, if we want to execute it well; in fact, I will tell you, in my opinion, it represents an enigma in the context of the entire sonata, from this point of view.

Let's be serious, let's establish a level of seriousness in musical studies, and then we can talk about it.

But coming back to us, Maestro, I read with

pay attention to what you write, and, I must say that the only difference lies in the "little movement obtained with a rather firm wrist", that of the little chords with the right hand, from 4:04 to 4:08 of Kempff's video (4 seconds!!!).

I, on the other hand, am used to performing that wrist movement.

Now, I wonder if this is truly the key and how it is possible that this difference can trigger a problem in the other hand, the left hand.

Frank wrote:

I possess a heirloom where the title page says: Edited by Franz Liszt Newly revised by C. Kuhner Bosworth Edition Arranged according to difficulty Here is the proposal from our beloved FL: Op. 49 n. 2 Op. 49 n. 1 Op. 79 Op. 14 n. 2 Op. 14 n. 1 Op. 2 n. 1 Op. 10 n. 1 Op. 10 n. 2 Op. 2 n. 2 Op. 2 n. 3 Op. 10 n. 3 Op. 13 Op. 22 Op. 28 Op. 7 Op. 78 Op. 26 Op. 31 n. 3 Op. 31 n. 1 Op. 90 Op. 27 n. 1 Op. 27 n. 2 Op. 54 Op. 31 n. 2 Op. 53 Op. 81a Op. 57 Op. 101 Op. 110 Op. 109 Op. 111 Op. 106

Hi Frank, but is this heirloom still available on the market?

Gianni

gianni69 wrote:

Hi Frank, but is this heirloom still available on the market?

Gianni

My copy is not for sale, I don't know if others can be found somewhere ... I bought it about twenty years ago in Prague

... do you have any curiosities?

Hi Frank, I don't have any particular curiosity, but Beethoven's music with Liszt's revision is certainly a beautiful thing, at least that's my feeling.

Bye

Gianni

tgdigit wrote:

Dearest Maestro, a thousand thanks.

You are always very helpful and it is noticeable from your words that you truly put yourself into giving advice; you are a precious and rare resource.

Now, I agree with you on the intrinsic difficulty of the sonata; I too have found many who consider it "easy," or rather, I will tell you they consider the first movement truly difficult from an interpretative point of view, but, for the rest, they superficially consider the third movement to be of a 5th-year Conservatory level of difficulty, thereby signifying its "ease."

Well, I would like to hear these "know-it-alls" play the third movement; instead, the most I see are two banal tips at extremely limited speed, which demonstrate nothing.

I can agree regarding interpretation, a subject on which one can never have the final word, but once interpreted "masterfully," if one does not resolve the third movement (for which I believe there are difficulties of varying degrees, rather than issuing a cutting judgment), playing it with the "confidence" it requires, what is there to play? Always and only the first movement, as many clueless amateurs do?

Then, do we want to talk about the second movement? No, and why? This too has its difficulty of an interpretative character, and a notable one, if we want to execute it well; in fact, I will tell you, in my opinion, it represents an enigma in the context of the entire sonata from this point of view.

Let's be serious, let's establish a level of seriousness in musical studies, and then we can talk about it.

But getting back to us, Maestro, I have read carefully what you write, and, I must say that the only difference lies in the "little movement obtained with a rather firm wrist," that of the small chords with the right hand, from 4:04 to 4:08 of Kempff's video (4 seconds!!!).

I, on the other hand, am used to executing that wrist movement.

Now, I wonder if this is truly the key and how it is possible that this difference can trigger a problem in the other hand, the left hand.

Wait! Let me explain myself better.

I watched myself again (it's hard to observe oneself) and it isn't true that I was playing with my wrist but not detaching much; the sound was a bit held back.

And yet the solution is written there, in the score; it says staccato.

I tried to play staccato—in fact, to emphasize the movement, staccatissimo with a firm wrist, forearm bounce, paying little attention to the notes, which come down almost by themselves.

Well, the problem has been significantly reduced.

Could it be a coincidence? Will it only happen today and tomorrow I'll be back to square one?

There is nonetheless something happening beforehand that needs to be "refined," because I somehow arrive tired from some momentary stiffness (perhaps at 3:31-3:37) that accumulates at the demanding passage.

In fact, if I execute that passage alone, detached from everything else, it does not seem so demanding and tiring.

Perhaps there is something else, a psychological factor linked to that passage that creates a false problem for me; I don't know if I am making myself clear.

You explain yourself very well. The passage will get better and better. Wrist firmness (but not rigidity) is mandatory because it also involves chords. The three notes must sound together. Banality? Not at all. Fingers rather firm. Light springiness. It is evident that the movement is very different from the left hand. The difficulty of some piano passages is precisely this: two or more different "basic gestures" to be realized simultaneously. Development of mental independence and muscular interdependence.

The staccato should not worry you. Already playing without thinking about legato is sufficient. In fact, think of a legato succession (since, by bouncing, the little chords cannot be played legato). Concentrate on the movement and on the different movement of the left hand. The first of the two that you internalize will guide the other. It is certain that the passage is "ungrateful." Ungrateful means that in relation to the moderate effect it produces on the listener, it is difficult to execute; it gives us "a hard time." Pay attention to the accents. Some, thought of in a certain way, help to compensate for the movement: I am talking about the little chords. Play thinking of greater support on the bold notes: fa sol fa mi mi fa sol re re mi re do etc.. Naturally, one does not want to overturn the scanning of strong accents, which will still be the protagonists... after all, we have already heard them in the chords of measures 88 and 89. The repetition of the playful pattern in measures 91, 92, and 93 will never betray their listening. We will hear what we expect, even if the strong little accents are not so emphasized. I take this opportunity to reiterate a general concept: sometimes we strive and torture ourselves to exaggerate the strong accents. If I play a waltz, I know well, and everyone knows and everyone feels, that the first beat is strong.... even if I don't play it loudly!!! It is very important, however, not to neglect the importance of weak accents, which elegantly support the rhythmic scanning. Try this in a Chopin waltz.

pianoexpert wrote:

You explain yourself very well. The passage will get better and better. Wrist firmness (but not rigidity) is mandatory because it also involves chords. The three notes must sound together. Banality? Far from it. Rather firm fingers. Light springiness. It is evident that the movement is very different from the left hand. The difficulty of some piano passages is precisely this: two or more different "basic gestures" to be realized simultaneously. Development of mental independence and muscular interdependence.

Staccato should not worry you. Already playing without thinking about legato is sufficient. In fact, think of a legato succession (after all, by bouncing, the little chords cannot be played legato). Concentrate on the movement and on the different movement of the left hand. The first of the two that you internalize will guide the other. It is certain that the passage is "ungrateful." Ungrateful means that in relation to the moderate effect it produces on the listener, it is difficult to execute; it gives us a "hard time." Pay attention to the accents. Some, conceived in a certain way, help to compensate for the movement: I am talking about the little chords. Play thinking of greater support on the bold notes: fa sol fa mi mi fa sol re re mi re do etc.. Naturally, one does not want to overturn the scanning of strong accents, which will be the protagonists anyway... after all, we have already heard them in the chords of measures 88 and 89. The repetition of the playful design in measures 91, 92, and 93 will never betray their listening. We will hear what we expect, even if the strong little accents are not so highlighted. I take this opportunity to reiterate a general concept: sometimes we strive and torture ourselves to exaggerate the strong accents. If I play a waltz, I know well, and everyone knows and everyone feels, that the first beat is strong.... even if I don't play it loudly!!! It is very important, however, not to neglect the importance of weak accents, which elegantly support the rhythmic scanning. Try this in a Chopin waltz.

At minutes 4:04 - 4:08 of Kempff's video, you can see very clearly how he executes the little chords; I execute them similarly, very staccato, and the passage works better for me.

Ungrateful? YES! I agree 100%. A bit like those Schumann pieces where the difficulties are often "under the radar," noted only by the pianist or by someone who "tries it on their own skin" (of the fingertips).

Accents on the little chords, yes, I would say they are quite necessary: fa sol fa mi mi fa mi re re mi re do etc., like an echo of the previous measures.

It is beautiful to speak with a Maestro, concretely, at this level of detail; only those who truly play can do so.

Frank wrote:

I possess a heirloom where the title page says:

Edited by Franz Liszt

Newly revised by C. Kuhner

Bosworth Edition

Arranged according to difficulty

Here is the proposal from our beloved FL:

Op. 49 n. 2

Op. 49 n. 1

Op. 79

Op. 14 n. 2

Op. 14 n. 1

Op. 2 n. 1

Op. 10 n. 1

Op. 10 n. 2

Op. 2 n. 2

Op. 2 n. 3

Op. 10 n. 3

Op. 13

Op. 22

Op. 28

Op. 7

Op. 78

Op. 26

Op. 31 n. 3

Op. 31 n. 1

Op. 90

Op. 27 n. 1

Op. 27 n. 2

Op. 54

Op. 31 n. 2

Op. 53

Op. 81a

Op. 57

Op. 101

Op. 110

Op. 109

Op. 111

Op. 106

I hope it is from the simplest to the most difficult!!