Opinion on "do it yourself" tuning

First of all, the piano is very out of tune, but the result is remarkable in my opinion considering that you are not an expert. Regardless of technical issues, I advise against DIY due to the risk of ovalizing the holes in the soundboard. It is better for you to call a technician. The tuning issue can already be heard in the first two notes.

First of all, thank you for the response!

So, as I have already specified in the premises, the piano is quite old; it doesn't just have a tuning problem.

The hammers need to be overhauled as they are very "grooved," the escapement regulation does not allow the hammers to get close to the famous 3-4mm but I have to stay at 2-3 cm, many felts should be replaced, etc. However, I don't think it makes much sense to spend 400-500 euros on it (tuning included).

Among other things, I don't think I damaged the soundboard holes; I followed all the instructions for that purpose (small jerky movements, etc.), and not by chance the tuning I performed more than a month ago seems not to have shifted at all.

Nevertheless, I wanted to understand clearly what you are deducing the evident out-of-tuneness from, not to be argumentative, mind you, but because I want to understand better myself.

For example, you say that even the first two notes result in being out of tune; I imagine you are referring to the initial dyad G#2 - G#3.

Now, if I go to verify the two frequencies, I find respectively (approximately):

G#2 103.6 Hz

G#3 206.9 Hz

Frequencies that, among other things, match those I identified on the Kawai Es7 digital piano (equal temperament).

Perhaps you perceived a dissonance specifically on the unisons (meaning I haven't aligned the individual strings well)? This would be possible because I haven't checked it...

Or do you mean something else?

I am expressing myself in terms that are perhaps not very technical, but I will try to be as clear as possible. Every piano has its own inharmonicity, meaning the strings produce partials that make the sound different to our ear, even if only slightly, from what it should be considering the "mathematical" frequency. A good technician knows how to make the piano "well out of tune" so that it sounds well tuned to the ear. First, the central strings of each trichord are tuned by isolating the two side strings. One proceeds with two techniques. The aural technique consists of tuning "by ear," starting by establishing the frequency of A3 and determining the correct ratios in the middle octave by proceeding through thirds-sixths or fifths-fourths while listening to the beats. Once the middle octave is tuned, one moves towards the extremes, always tuning the octaves by ear. Finally, the unisons are tuned (in a cantabile style, one might leave the left string slightly flat). The other system consists of using an electronic tuner capable of pre-listening to the instrument's inharmonicity; the strict judgment of the human ear is always required, especially at the extremes. I am not a technician, so I may have said something inaccurate, but just to make you understand that one does not tune by pulling strings to preset and universal frequencies. Tuning a grand piano using a keyboard as a reference will lead to an out-of-tune state. And then, as I was saying, there is the risk of damaging the action, or twisting the tuning pins instead of turning them; professional tools, sensitivity, manual dexterity, and knowing how to "stabilize" the tuning are required.

Another thing: I recommend removing the felt damper and adjusting the escapement closer to the strings. The damper does not protect the neighbors or our "good ear".

I do not doubt that a good tuner is capable of doing what you say; what I doubt is whether I am capable of perceiving the difference between their tuning and my "do-it-yourself" one, which is why I am looking for someone to help me "perceive" the differences, someone who tells me "try playing this interval here and you will see that you feel it too flat" and things like that...

In any case, it must be said that differences can be perceived "harmonically," meaning by playing chord sequences over even extended intervals; I doubt you could have heard a mistuning on the initial dyad! This is why sometimes I have the impression that we are influenced more by prejudices than by an actual acoustic sensation. That is to say, if I had written: "What do you think of the tuning performed by the best tuner in my area?", are you sure you wouldn't have written that you perceived the piano as very out of tune?

As for the issue of the escapement, it is not a matter of muting (which, during the practice phase, I judge to be a useful tool), but rather that the hammer notch must have actually worn down. That is, if I try to adjust the escapement regulation, at a certain point the hammer gets too close and no longer escapes!

So either I stay at 2-3 cm or "it doesn't escape"!?

First "symptom" that it is out of tune: an absurd echo. Yes, you might tell me that maybe it could depend on the dampers, but I'm telling you that it is truly out of tune. It can be heard and it is evident.

I heard it out of tune already in the first bichord

If you listen closely to the sound, you can hear the beats, a sort of go and come back.

Good morning Maverick. As Francesco has already told you, the piano is very out of tune. The severe detuning can be perceived from the very first octave note: G#. Tuning practice requires that octaves be "firm," meaning that no beats are felt. In the specific video you sent us, beats are not perceived simply because the beat generated between the two notes exceeds the ear's "roughness" zone, which is that area within and beyond which beats are so fast they are no longer distinguishable. The approach you used for tuning is totally wrong. You actually tried to reproduce the frequencies of another piano (sampled) on your piano by doing, if I understood correctly, a sort of frequency copy-and-paste.

You must imagine that reference frequencies even vary between instruments of the same brand and model; therefore, by copying the frequencies of a tuned piano and attempting to transfer them to another instrument of the same model, you might get an unsatisfactory result.

Inharmonicity is a property that belongs to every instrument but creates serious problems only in the piano (where we have 88 notes and where, in most sections, a note consists of 3 strings). Inharmonicity is not a constant property over time but tends to vary depending on many parameters; just to give you an example: the number of tunings the instrument has undergone, the presence or absence of rust on the strings. These are just some of the parameters that can modify the physical properties of the string. Tuning by ear, by dividing the middle octave and maintaining the correct harmonic ratios between sounds, is the method that tends to automatically incorporate the inharmonicity of the string. As far as electronic tuning is concerned, there is no other way than to measure the inharmonicity between sounds and attempt to approximate this "stretch curve" to a more or less valid standard that pleases the ear. I say this because the human ear reacts subjectively to high and low frequencies. In particular, playing the highest notes of the piano forcefully might make them seem flat, while playing them delicately might make them seem sharp. The reverse applies to the low notes.

Electronic instruments can certainly help in dividing the middle octave (where there is low inharmonicity), but they fail completely on the highs and lows because they tend to standardize something subjective. The best electronic tuners, including Tunelab, actually allow you to adjust the stretch curve according to your own taste, which then allows you to achieve satisfactory tuning. From my point of view, they can be a good support for those who are professional tuners and know the problems related to piano tuning; they do not seem very suitable for DIY.

francescochopin90 wrote:

15 minutes ago, francescochopin90 said:

If you listen closely to the sound, you can hear the beats, a sort of ebb and flow.

That beating you hear is a sort of carrier wave generated by the averages of the beats between unison strings. When the detuning is this evident, we are well beyond the threshold of useful audible beating.

thesimon wrote:

6 hours ago, thesimon said:

That beating you hear is a sort of carrier wave generated by the averages of the beats between unison strings. When the tuning error is this evident, we are well beyond the threshold of useful audible beating.

Thank you very much for the clarification ?

So, I cannot but agree with your accurate exposition, which certainly fits perfectly for a piano with strings and soundboard in good condition.

Nevertheless, the following doubts remain in me due to the age of the instrument.

Starting from the assumption that in any case a retuning would involve every string being "altered" by a few hundredths of a percent in pitch, and I remember well it was not possible (I tried in every way) to obtain such minute granularity and, above all, regular and stable, in the sense that on some strings one could achieve more, on others much less, I imagine precisely because of the "age" of the soundboard and the strings.

I wonder. If I were to call a good tuner:

1) Would they be able to set and lock those small variations in string tension?

2) Assuming they succeed. An average ear, such as mine might be, would it be able to appreciate the differences?

In any case, you have piqued my curiosity quite a bit and as soon as I have some time I want to resume that discussion about the TuneLab software; perhaps I could repost the recording following the retuning with Tunelab, and maybe you could help me perceive the differences....

Thank you very much anyway for your precious information!

I thank you very much anyway for your contributions and for the time you have dedicated to me.

I am also adding a technical question to the forum....but is it not possible to edit the post once it has been published?

thesimon wrote:

23 hours ago, thesimon said:

That beating you hear is a sort of carrier wave generated by the averages of the beats between unison strings. When the tuning error is this evident, we are well beyond the threshold of useful audible beating.

Anyway, this only depends on the imperfect "alignment" of the three strings underlying the note, right?

The piano is very out of tune!!!! Very! It is not easy to tune this type of piano. It is quite disharmonious. But that does not change the fact that a satisfactory tuning can be achieved. One must dedicate some time and attention to it... experience is also decisive. If one thinks of tuning this type of instrument with an electronic tuner, in my opinion, it is a waste of time. Then it depends on how long the tuning can hold (assuming the tuning pins have been positioned correctly). Already from the p

From the first octave sol sharp, the detuning can be felt!