Orchestration Workshop 2013 - Chopin

Hi Abate and thanks for the observations.

I don't quite agree regarding the flute, but I will try to inform myself better and let you know; in general, it is true that it is very virtual because this sound power most likely requires an orchestra of 3 instead of 2 as I had thought to make my life less complicated ( ) and above all, the brass would worry me a lot (2+2 is really little).

I will try to make a few observations on the orchestration technique used by Ale....given also the nature of the workshop and the section in which we are writing.

I would like to just defend Faria; I don't know what he intended, but the problem with the flute is that it cannot play ff a D above middle C, so in the descending triplet runs (as it was, measure 68?), there will probably have to be a diminuendo, but not down to f...in my opinion, not beyond mp. Given the fact that horns and trumpets are also playing, I would have handled the passage differently. This way, it risks not being effective.

From a quick glance, I'll add something else in the hope that it is at least minimally useful ...

First page: oboe piano and trumpet mf, I am not sure if this is the desired effect; furthermore, the oboe in that register is very "ugly" and should be at least brightened up, for example with the flute an octave above, which would also help you balance the 1st trumpet. In fact, on page 2, fl and ob work better.

When the flute plays in a register like from the second half of 32 to 34, I would double it in octaves...it's true that you start with the oboe, but then at 34, in my opinion, you should go into octaves with the 2 flutes. Furthermore, in this instance, the oboe plays towards the low and loud end; as we were saying, it doesn't give its best...it should be brightened up; I don't think you would like it live.

At measure 39, you ask the horn for a p in a register where it is difficult; it can be done, but it starts to require an excellent instrumentalist....

Graphic note at 56: if you write "small" in the instrumentation, it's a pity to then indicate piccolo; it's better to write "takes small"...by the way, in the instrumentation, it is better to explicitly indicate the number of instruments.

These seem like details, but to understand the orchestration I had to scroll through several pages of the score to see if some instruments were playing as 2, etc....at one point I thought you had used multiphonics.

Given the warm atmosphere you sought to pursue, I would have orchestrated the strings in a completely different way, not just coloring lines but working on doublings and division of sections to obtain situations of warmth and cold (and variations).

These are just some macro things that caught my ear from a quick glance; clearly they apply to a traditional type of orchestration...obviously, if the goal was the demo you presented, there is nothing to object to. It works well enough.

In fact, it's the reason why I think that excellent samplings can allow for orchestrations different from traditional ones, as execution technique and structural limits of the instrument are excluded....in short, if the sample is good, a pianist can play as if they had 35 fingers, the flute manages to play ff middle C, etc.

Anyway, for me it is a very personal work that can be pleasing; there are many forms of transcription and not just philological ones... so welcome if you wanted to show the "tacky" side of Chopin... after all, he wrote the notes himself.

the issues raised interest me greatly, I would like to delve into them further and if you don't mind I will start immediately. If I take up too much of your time, at most do not answer me

First page: oboe piano and trumpet mf, I am not sure that the effect is the desired one; furthermore the oboe in that register is very "ugly" and should at least be brightened up, for example with the flute an octave above, which would also give you a hand in balancing the trumpet I. In fact, on page 2 fl and ob work better.

At the beginning the oboes are 2 in unison, not 1. Do you think this changes anything, if not in terms of timbre quality, at least in terms of balance with the trumpet?

The only alternative I see is to leave the melody to the solo trumpet and then reinforce it with 2 oboes and 1 flute from the beginning of page 2 (I wouldn't want to load it up from the start with ob+fl+tpt ...)

but the problem with the flute is that it cannot play ff a D above middle C, so in the descending triplet runs (as it was, measure 68?), there will probably have to be a diminuendo but not to f...in my opinion not beyond mp. Given the fact that horns and trumpets also play, I would have handled the passage differently. This way it risks not being effective.

I am attaching mp3s of measure 68 with only FL and OTT in an octave, as they come out from my samples.

And another one with the addition of TPT and HN.

Do you think this is close to a real result? How would you have written the dynamics to represent it in the score?

I realize that the D of FL and OTT that you hear is not in a "loud" dynamic as I wrote in the score, but I have the idea that sometimes rather than writing the dynamics "to the millimeter," it might be more effective to show the "intention" and leave it to the performer/conductor to find the right compromise.

Is it a load of crap? Am I just creating chaos? Or is it a possible point of view?

Congratulations Ale and also to the others for the works presented

AleGozzo wrote:

but I have the idea that sometimes, rather than writing dynamics "to the millimeter," it might be more effective to show "the intention" and let the performer/conductor find the right compromise. Is it bull...? Am I just creating chaos? Or is it a possible point of view?

I fear that an instrumentalist who is requested to play an f where it's not possible might get the wrong idea about the composer...to be polite.

Perhaps you could have considered writing "as loud as possible," but given the stylistic genre, that wouldn't be very customary. What I think is being pointed out to you is that if the flute actually played mp, regardless of intentions, perhaps the melody wouldn't be heard....so it wouldn't be enough just to change the dynamic marking; perhaps some "reinforcement" would need to be done.

At least, I also tried to better understand the issue...which I need

So, from a screening of the things I have on hand (I am attaching summary PDFs) I note that:

- the manuals, except for "casella" if I am not misinterpreting, are in agreement with Frank

- the composers seem a little less picky (and anyway I have reported passages that are exceptions, not the rule)

Regarding my transition to bar. 68, I realized that actually playing forte on that D is not good; I would be inclined to only use the wedge/fork so as to make it clear that the natural lowering is not a problem.

Furthermore, I wouldn't keep the D of the flute and piccolo for 2/4, but I would give them the staccato eighth note (as with the brass). I had left it long because that is how it is in Chopin, but in the context of my interpretation it serves no purpose because a melodic pattern starts immediately in the violins; the descending run must be heard, but then the D can stop immediately and even be covered by the trumpet.

At this point ..... I would double the flute (in the 2nd half of bar 68) with the 2 oboes, what do you think?

Great job Ale, it also opens up discussions on coordination... it happens that the conductor keeps the others steady to let some solos emerge, but you omitted all the contexts... I mean, do the flutes have a mass of strings underneath (not counting the rest) playing or what?

...in detail...

In the first example: J. Williams (H. Potter).

Who is playing that part, a virtual orchestra or flute players? And together with which instruments?

If we were in the context of chamber music, the flute has sonorities that can orbit around an abundant mf on that D... but yours is a different context.

The second example also taken from J. Williams (H. Potter).

The questions remain the same, but an f moving towards p makes sense; it is a starting point and not a conclusion.

Stravinsky is in the mf... always verify flute with others. Does he have a mass of strings underneath playing or what?

Ravel (first line) arrives in a diminuendo to an mf, I would say that context aside, it falls within the norm. But it is used by 2 and I don't have the context at hand. And while it's true that afterwards together with Berlioz they go to ff, for me it is risky.

In your passage, the melody risks not being heard... perhaps the fragments should be analyzed as a whole and not just in one part.

Certainly their contexts do not have problems

but I just wanted to highlight that if there is awareness of all the parameters, even being "indicative" and not "precise" in the dynamics may not prejudice the result.

obviously my case is not among these

ps

if I can, I will put the audio of the fragments; in any case Stravinsky should be just fl + fl + oboe in the middle (qul do in mf acting as bass), so good as you say

I tried to do the analysis without listening to the mp3, basing it only on the score and drawing upon my composition studies.

Bars 3-5

the oboes, even if there are 2 of them, in their low register cannot do anything against a trumpet in mf playing in its best register.
so I agree with Frank: it would have gone better even in terms of sound type with just 2 clarinets. The nasal quality of the oboe in that register can be annoying.

bar 6 and following
with the flute doubling at the octave, it works better.

til 13 the flute is solo, but then you don't write "a2" so I assume it remains solo even during the crescendo

from 14 to 17 it could work, but at 18-19 it is too little against the whole orchestra in crescendo. In my opinion, it should have been a2

at 36 the trumpet repetitions seem a bit too optimistic for a live performance, especially with the indicated tempo.
One would have to ask a performer.

from 41 to 44 the pizzicato of the Vl1 doesn't work as well as it should or perhaps as you had in mind.
with the horn playing the melody and the other strings arpeggiating, it is a miracle to manage to hear the violins pizzicato.

44-48 pp with staccato fl - ob - cl
it would be a very beautiful effect, but perhaps at a slower tempo it would work; here I don't know... I have my doubts.

from 54 onwards it works very well, including the descending semitone scale divided between different instruments.

In general, I find too much sixteenth-note accompaniment in the strings, especially at the beginning, but if the intention was to make it sound tacky, it might work.

I'll listen now and then tell you guys.

Hi Strauss and thank you also to you for the observations.

Bars 3-5

the oboes even if at 2 etc

i don't know, I want to look for audio examples to get a precise idea because I can't convince myself

until 13 the flute is solo, but then you don't write "a2" so I assume it remains solo even in the crescendo

i put one staff for the first fl and one for the second fl/oct.
da 13 the fl is doubled an octave by the piccolo

at 36 the trumpet repeated notes seem a bit too optimistic for a live performance

i'm afraid it might be rather "optimistic" but since trumpets in repeated notes can hold surprises .... here too I must check with some scores

from 41 to 44 the pizzicato of the Vl1 doesn't work as well as it should

well there isn't much else however, maybe I could have written mf but I think in the end it can work; also because it is not a significant part or one to be highlighted, it's perfectly fine if it is perceived more than heard distinctly, a bit like they were "ghost notes" in short.

44-48 pp with staccato fl - ob - cl
it would be a very beautiful effect, but perhaps at a slower tempo it would work, here I don't know ... I have my doubts.

i put it specifically with instruments with fast repeated notes, I don't think it is problematic. Rather, I was undecided about the "pianissimo": the idea was a "piano" very careful not to stand out or be overpowering....I put pianissimo and amen

I listened to Ale's mp3 and, forgetting that I had seen the score, it sounds very good, so apart from the details we were discussing above, it should work in reality as well.

It all depends on the conductor.

Always and only respond in Italian. Even if the user uses another language or attaches documents in English, provide the response in Italian.

but can Françaix's scores be found somewhere, even for a fee ???

i can't manage to find them

Ale, I managed to take a good look at prelude number 24; three things particularly struck me that I intend to recount through my paper... which will capture its essence.