Piano Technique And Debussy

I like Abbado's text, it is very poetic ... and I imagine it was cut for a CD cover, it does not and cannot claim to be a technical treatise.

I didn't want to stir up a hornet's nest, and I am convinced that a good performer should not be missing any significant passage of repertoire; this applies to Chopin but also to his contemporaries, his predecessors, and his successors.

Pianists already struggle with only 3 centuries of good music... if we start removing important links in the repertoire as well...

The talent that TheSimon refers to is fundamental, but only after any kind of climb (Chopin or not Chopin) can a new and better performer be born...

So let's say, it's poetic for a CD cover where many things are written just to sound sophisticated and that's it.

Speaking of pianists, even if Jazz, saying that a Petrucciani was not a true pianist because he didn't perform Chopin's studies seems to me just like blaspheming in front of a church (Just to cite one example among many).

What kind of hornet's nest are you talking about? What you are saying is correct and I agree with it...

Frank wrote:

but only after any kind of climb (Chopin or not Chopin) can a new and better performer be born...

Ok. I have read everything, albeit a bit in a hurry. I have a beautiful memory of Marcello Abbado, when he was Director at the Conservatory of Pesaro. A musician of great sensitivity and preparation. I believe that sometimes words should not be weighed too heavily. Sometimes definitions come out as a "distillate" of thought, which implies many things. Now, it is true that not all hands can play all the studies in question. Mine, in particular, cannot. 5th finger too short, even if compensated by the width and length of the thumb. I believe that Chopin's studies are a "milestone" for every pianist and I believe one should have the duty, at least, to explore them. The phrase that irritates Simone so much must not be taken absolutely. In a presentation, some concepts are "forced" to draw attention and to "exalt" the image of certain elements to the listener to the maximum. For those in the industry, I truly believe it should not be understood in an absolute sense.

In my opinion, Chopin's studies are fundamental. They appear at a moment when the Author turns a page on pianism. The thumb on the black keys, the fourth leaping over the fifth, the fifth playing two consecutive notes sliding from a black to a white key, etc... things never seen before until then. His studies do not only help in understanding his technical innovations, but they open a front on modern pianism. They are still very relevant, even after those of Liszt and Debussy (extremely difficult!!!!). Chopin's studies are essential and exhaustive. Godowsky rewrote the studies, exasperating the difficulties... perhaps excessive and unbalanced. Try looking at them!

I wish everyone to be able to appreciate and "get their hands on" these jewels of our piano heritage and listen to some illustrious interpretations. Pollini's is excellent!!!!! It was said: "his hands seem born to perform Chopin's studies". A great interpretation that I own on vinyl is that of the great and late Dino Ciani, performed at his home and recorded by a friend!!!!!! Fantastic!!!!! I had the fortune of hearing him live, in a concert from the past, in which six Chopin studies were included. He had great ease of execution and great naturalness.

And then, I would not want to call them Studies. They are great piano musical compositions that codify everything that is in Chopin's pianism.

Well. Happy studying... or rather, happy Studies!!!

pianoexpert wrote:

... 5th finger too short, even if compensated by the opening and length of the thumb. ...

I find this passage very interesting, would you like to explain it in more detail?

But I don't get irritated at all by something like that, and anyway everyone thinks what they want. However, it seems to me like a sentence put there just for show, an end in itself. If that sentence were true, it would mean that only those who have performed Chopin's studies are pianists; does it follow that if Chopin's studies had not existed, no one would have become a pianist? This is not a personal opinion, it is logic, and logic is undeniable, which is why I am insisting on this sentence. I fully share the rest of Abbado's comment, but not that sentence, which is absurd. If, therefore, it was written for show, as I believe it was, okay, I accept it and take it with the due lightness, but if he had written that sentence with conviction, it is logically absurd!!

Thumb opening can compensate for the lack of length of the 5th, but an imbalance is still created between the 4th and the 5th.

For Simone: I said "irritates" as a figure of speech. I know very well how attentive you are to substance. Once I was in Positano in a beautiful hotel. The owner asked me: "Have you ever eaten at our Restaurant? (to be read with the appropriate sweet Salerno intonation). I replied: No. And he replied: "...And then you haven't yet tasted the best!!!!" I was sympathetically struck by the advertising phrase which, apparently, excluded the dedication and precious competence of the remaining restaurateurs of Italy.....and I booked. Exceptional!!!!!

Of course, however, that Restaurant is not and will not always be an absolute reference, but I discovered new dishes, cooked in a particular way.

The phrase had an effect. The effect met the expectations. ...But one can also eat in a good homemade trattoria.

Here, this really seems to fit perfectly to me!

Rotore wrote:

I feel sorry for him, but objectively he will always be a mediocre pianist simply because a good 40% of the repertoire will be impossible for him to play... Chopin would be the least of his problems.

He would be better off turning towards early music; it might even be better if he became a harpsichordist.

This, however, is criticizable. Should women, who have smaller hands, consider themselves genetically less gifted than men? In reality, there are excellent pianists with small hands (I remember a young girl who, although she started playing after me, was performing Chopin's Scherzo No. 2 while I was struggling to learn Schubert's impromptu Op. 90, No. 2) and excellent harpsichordists with large hands.

As for Chopin, it is true, unfortunately, that almost everyone plays him and almost everyone "shows him off" as a "showpiece," only to then have a crisis when faced with, for example, a Scarlatti sonata.

Regarding Abbado's words, I would consider them motivated, more than anything, by commercial interests (in fact, as this discussion confirms, for the vast majority of pianists, only Chopin exists, and playing means playing Chopin).

Noting that the only one who has said anything about Debussy is TheSimon, I would like to conclude on the relationship between technique, physical attributes, study, and talent with a phrase I believe I read in a creative writing essay:

"In football schools, you must scold those who kick with their toes; yet Maradona knew how to score goals with his toes too.".

I am only just now reading the topic

pestatasti wrote:

the only one who said something about Debussy

....but the subject of the topic invites discussion on piano technique...it escapes me if Debussy also wrote studies, a naive but sincere question.

pestatasti wrote:

"in football schools one must reprimand those who kick with their toes; yet Maradona knew how to score goals with his toes as well".

Perhaps Maradona knew how to score with the side of his foot too...maybe he treated the tip of the foot like the neck

Let's just say that not everyone has Maradona's feet and I doubt he went to football school, if not to teach a course

Lestofante wrote:

I am only just now reading this topic

....the subject of the topic, however, invites discussion on piano technique... it escapes me whether Debussy also wrote etudes; a naive but sincere question.

Subject: piano technique and Debussy

If I had read [it], the author of the first post was requesting the correct technical approach to tackle Debussy's Estampes. The author of the second post then expanded the question, asking if it were possible to reach the technical level necessary for the Estampes without having gone through the etudes of Chopin and Liszt.

Maybe Maradona knew how to score with his buttocks too... maybe he treated the tip of his foot like a neck

Let's just say that not everyone has Maradona's feet, and I doubt he went to football school, unless it was to teach a course

Well... Kicking a ball and playing the piano are not exactly the same thing. I don't recall ever hearing of any talented pianist who, despite their talent, did not go to school. Perhaps for football there is no need. I don't know, I don't love football and I've never played it except to kick a ball around occasionally :-)

Of course Debussy wrote studies. Extremely difficult and beautiful. Quite different are les Estampes, which are beautiful. I find the second "Soirée dans Grenade" moving, as it evokes Spain in an impressive way.... or rather "impressionistic"... And yet Debussy never set foot in Spain, imagine!!!!

Thank you Paolo

I discovered that Brahms also wrote studies, but how many do you need to know in the world ... today?

Is it not possible that Debussy, like Chopin, wrote studies for himself to be prepared to perform his own pieces? This would be an excellent answer for pestatasti

TheSimon wrote:

I don't recall ever hearing of any piano talent who, despite their talent, did not go to school.

... Wagner?

Ok like Maradona and how many others?

TheSimon wrote:

Ok, like Maradona, and how many others?

Aside from the fact that I was responding to PestaTasti, he is the one who proposed the football metaphor.

The fact remains that your assumption was: "I don't recall ever hearing of any piano talent who, despite their talent, did not go to school."

One has popped up... maybe if you look... you'll see there is even someone else

Anyway, I understood your point; in fact, my first post was precisely to say that there are those who can afford it and those who can less so. Those who can less so are very few, but they have existed

To me too, that statement seems like just a phrase said for effect. Interesting thought by pestatasti... And what about women?? Are they almost all half-pianists? At that point, we would be bordering on chauvinism.

.

Lestofante wrote:

... Wagner?

Eh? 😕