Pleyel Vs Erard..........

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleyel

Pleyel pianos are of great prestige today, and even in his time they were much appreciated by great composers such as Fryderyk Chopin or Franz Liszt. The former, among other things, asserted that when playing for himself, he preferred an upright piano to a grand piano, for a greater sense of "intimacy," which is recognized in the very timbre of Pleyel instruments

Un altra "campana" ....

http://www.madeleineforte.com/interview02.html

Chopin preferred to perform on a Pleyel piano when he was feeling healthy and in good form, because he had to "create" his sound as he said. A Pleyel is less brilliant than an Erard: it is mellow and warm in tone, and can be played in perfect legatissimo, Chopin's fan, Jane Sterling, would have described it as being "like water," which amused Chopin. Double thirds can be taken at an incredible speed, in comparison to what is produced, for example, on a Steinway which, being heavier, can hold the pianist back. Also its booming basses make it difficult to maintain clear contrapuntal lines. It is easier to sing a Chopin melody on French pianos, which are mostly treble oriented.

I quote BackSpace's second intervention. Indeed, if one needs to maintain clarity in the bass, it is a bit difficult and the pedal must be avoided. Perhaps on a "treble oriented" piano this could be easier. Even though I worship Steinways, they have always seemed very clear to me and, above all, very balanced acoustically speaking.

Naturally, Chopin's Pleyels are not comparable to today's Pleyels. At that time, compared to those being compared, these instruments were sweet, very sonorous, and favored a great legato. Chopin also owned an upright Pleyel, which can be seen in some photos around the web. I believe that piano is in Poland. According to Cortot's book—who was a pupil of Matihas, who in turn was a pupil of Chopin—it seems that the great composer did not have much energy when playing. Proof of this is the comment he made when he heard his studies played by Liszt. Legato, on the other hand, was an object of fundamental research for Chopin. His long and singable phrases required a piano rich in "sonorous enamel": a Pleyel. He was very satisfied with that piano (see his letters). Of course, today we have other great instruments that know how to "sing," which help us sing, even by pedaling more freely and for longer periods. But at that time, no. Undoubtedly, at that time the soundboards were also less loaded. The "romantic" sound was wide and voluminous. With the '900 [20th century], manufacturers increased the load of the soundboard and made the hammers larger and harder. A greater attack transient, but with a more "restrained" sound, less wide... but easier to manage in pedaling. Powerful instruments for large halls. Let us remember instead that Chopin never played for a large audience. His programs were also modest. For example, he used to present only two movements of his two concertos in F and E minor.

Surely the pianos of that time, and especially those Pleyels, were very clear, even if less powerful, in the mids and lows.

I was wondering about the Chopin piano matter too. In fact, I rack my brain thinking about how he managed to play those technically extremely difficult pieces on a piano without double escapement....he was a monster! Anyway, the pianos of that time were somewhat makeshift... was the frame already metal? The strings certainly weren't like today's... if I'm not mistaken, it was precisely during that period with Liszt and Chopin that the piano began to undergo the transformations that led to its current state. But how did those two do it! ...Or perhaps it's just that if someone is a monster of skill and genius like Chopin, they would play well even on a rock?

I don't believe that period pianos were all that uncomfortable to play. I don't remember where, but I seem to have read that the action was even lighter than today's pianos.

Here is the link to a wonderful website where there are photos of period pianos. In particular, this is a link to a 1837 Pleyel: http://hammerfluegel...ge=3&imgid=3407

This instead is a photo that highlights a bass hammer. http://hammerfluegel...ge=3&imgid=3416

Let us not forget finally that both Liszt and Chopin, as well as many other musicians of the time... (it wasn't just them), were among the most well-known and renowned performers/composers of the era and always played on instruments of great prestige. Mr. Pleyel often offered his "Salle Pleyel" to Chopin for his concerts, always having him play on instruments chosen from the best.

The fact of being able to play well on any instrument is, in my opinion, just a utopia! For pieces like Chopin's studies, I don't see how it is possible to play them as they should be played (with Chopin's metronome) on a stuck keyboard, or on an instrument that is not properly prepared.

If you know someone capable of saying: "I can play a Chopin étude on any piano," please bring them to me; you will see that in thirty seconds I will debunk the myth. For technically difficult concert pieces, one needs a piano that is capable of rising to the challenge of supporting the pianist's technique and that responds promptly and faithfully to the pianist's intentions. Conversely, it is not possible.

TheSimon wrote:

I don't believe that period pianos were all that uncomfortable to play.

... is anyone comfortable with bayonet action?

But what does that have to do with it? The bayonet mechanism is installed on upright pianos...

There are uprights of Pleyel as well, and anyway when one says: "I don't think period pianos were that uncomfortable to play". Period pianos also include uprights and the bayonet action...

I didn't understand, are these bayonet actions comfortable or not?

I have a piano with a German Krauss bayonet action; I can tell you that as long as the action was in good condition, it wasn't so uncomfortable, nor particularly comfortable, in short, one could play on it quite easily. Regarding the matter of upright pianos, Chopin had an upright on which he loved to play and on which he practiced at home, with a "very intimate" sound according to his notebooks, but as far as I know, uprights with bayonet action were never used in concerts...

The discussion would be long and Simone has covered a good part of it. The "double escapement," however improperly named it may be, greatly facilitates repeated notes and makes the keyboard more reliable, since the pianist, as is well known, does not have to let the keys return completely to their resting position to resonate again. I owned a Petrof grand piano without double escapement, with what is called "spillo" (pin) action... and I assure you it had an action that, when well regulated, was extremely responsive. Pianos in Chopin's time, as Simone mentioned, had lighter actions and required less energy to play. Chopin was satisfied with Pleyels precisely because they were sensitive and sweet, with sufficient attack for small rooms (let us remember that Chopin never played for a very large audience). Thus, smaller and lighter hammers, less loaded soundboards, etc... The situation of a Steinway grand piano is quite different, which, marvelously, reaches the last row of the auditorium with its sound and its "brilliant" attack. The greater inertia of the action is significantly aided by the "double escapement," and the pianist finds that the return of the key's readiness to play is somewhat facilitated. Therefore, I believe that at that time one could play a Chopin étude quite well on a Pleyel. I confirm what Simone maintains when he states that, in any case, the piano must be well "prepared," otherwise it would be impossible to execute and to properly understand the correct "gestures" of piano performance.

Alright, I've repeated myself a bit.... not seeing that I had already replied on this topic. I apologize, but "repetita juvant" applies to ourselves and others. We must be guardians of our convictions and yet ready for open debate. Good Music

.....Sorry....I'm back...but the subject excites me...I am deeply in a delirium for my favorite composer :"Chopin"....his works have made me go so crazy that I can do nothing but think about them. It has become an obsession. Now I am reading Chopin's life written by Liszt and I can't tell you what it doesn't say....I am literally immersed in the musical world of two piano geniuses and this is wonderful....it feels like I am there among those two .... It is also wonderful to see how much Liszt loved art, that he wasn't jealous and esteemed Chopin to the point of considering him a genius. I thank Simone for his reply, which clarified many things for me....in fact, I also believe it is impossible to perform Chopin's studies on a piano that does not respond to the stimuli and virtuosity of the pianist. Look what I found? It is a quote from Chopin regarding Pleyel pianos...I have transcribed it for you....Has anyone by any chance ever played on a Pleyel? Are they to be found? I visited their website and noticed they are very expensive, but I have never seen them from any retailer, why? Now I have the urge to have one.

"If I do not have complete mastery of my means, if my fingers are less flexible, less agile, if I do not find the strength to shape the keyboard according to my will, to lead and modify the movement of the keys and hammers as I intend, then I prefer an Erard piano;

the sound produces itself in its clear brilliance; but if I feel vigorous, disposed to move my fingers without effort, without nervousness, I prefer Pleyel pianos. The transmission of my thought, of my feeling, is more direct, more personal. I perceive my fingers in more direct communication with the hammers, which translate with exactness and fidelity the sensation I wish to produce, the effect I want to achieve."

F.Chopin

The book you are reading, Gilda, is very beautiful, in which Liszt analyzes Chopin very well both in a professional capacity and in love... Also read 'Chopin racconta Chopin' by Piero Rattalino, who I believe wrote only the preface in the book you are currently reading... I assure you it is an added value. With the book you are reading, you have an exhaustive view of Chopin; with Rattalino's, an introspective one. You will be amazed by Chopin's thoughts in his notebooks; you will discover an infinitely fragile and humble person, and his bond with the family he literally adored. Liszt describes the late Chopin well, the one who was already established and esteemed. It is interesting to see the path he took, how he did it, and also the thoughts of people after Chopin's death in recovered letters. In short, money well spent... I warmly recommend it to you.

Thank you Simon..... your advice is precious and I will certainly proceed immediately with the purchase of the book that I absolutely want to read. Now that Chopin has exploded so powerfully in my heart, I can do nothing but try to learn everything he has done. I will confess to you that I studied the violin, but the piano was in a certain sense my first love because I started studying it at 6 years old... Now it has exploded again with violence and I confess that I have started studying again (on my own, that is.... well...). Simon, I wanted to ask you, is it possible for me to play something by Chopin decently? I have started studying Etude op.10 no.3 and the Waltz op.64 no.2. It was while studying these pieces that I fell in love with this composer... in short... it's exhilarating. His melodies, his harmonizations, his modulations, .....it ends up in certain places... they seem like the most remote and hidden places of the heart where the most noble thoughts and values are hidden... and you are right about Liszt... how Chopin describes him.... he was exactly like his music.. he was a pure soul. My dream? To be able to perform the Heroic Polonaise.....! My goodness....!!!! Don't take me for being conceited.... it's just love!!!!.Give me some advice, please...

I am glad that you have rediscovered a new "Chopin Spring" in this way, what can I say? I do not know what your level is and therefore it is very difficult to advise you, also because you have grouped two completely different pieces together regarding technical requirements. Chopin's studies, both Op. 10 and Op. 25, are very complex from various points of view, and not just technically! Number 3 is perhaps the technically "easiest" one, but it is very difficult regarding phrasing choices and legato. The right hand sings a lot in the extreme register. Chopin was indeed a great "researcher" of expressiveness and singing on the piano. Perhaps it would be a good idea to focus attention on something more approachable to begin with (I repeat that I do not know your level of piano studies, so maybe I am saying things without foundation). However, if instead, as I seem to have understood, this is your first approach to Chopin, then you can rely on this topic where it is discussed exactly what to start with.

As for the Polonaise, one will certainly get there sooner or later through study...

Wow....!!! Thanks for the topic.....I'm saving it, there are a lot of pieces. Thank you again.

Don't mention it

Hello, "interpreting Chopin" by J. Kleczynsky is also interesting - published by viennepierre.