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Natan wrote:

...harmonically, how do you get to the Neapolitan Zedef? I mean, coming from an F that in G major is too modal. Maybe putting a nice Eb instead of the last F of the first measure?

Obviously I meant E and not Eb, as Carlos also says

Natan wrote:

In my opinion, you first need to decide on the answer, then you will think carefully about the CS ...

...true ...

The answer in D minor

could be :

meas. 1

I

V2

I

meas. 2

IV2

and then one would go into A minor.

We can modulate here or go to A minor and then introduce a connecting episode to re-tonicize in G minor.

But ... I am not the ultimate authority on fugues

suonolatromba wrote:

Since the obligation to mutate exists

The "obligations" are only academic (and in 90% of cases stylistic)... there are those who may have other needs

suonolatromba wrote:

otherwise we would end up in the worst-case scenario

It is one way, but as I was saying, you could even end up on the II of G-, tonicizing it precisely through the third measure of the subject. Then, as Zedef says, "de gustibus". To tell the truth, Eb could already be a VI of G-, so VI V/II | II ... VII/V | I.

This is just one of the final proposals; for me, you could even do a canon at the octave, start the fugue in stretto, there are many such cases ...

I am simply saying that the answer alone cannot decide whether the complete fugue will have artistic value or not

How stupid, I also focused on CS

In my opinion, it's just a matter of deciding whether one wants a scholastic approach or not; the subject is interesting but already very "evolved"... actually your first post (Frank) contemplates both cases.

The proposals regarding alternatives ("formal") to the academic model are interesting ...

Marzapane, the point is that having asked Zedef for enlightenment who, if I'm not mistaken, also teaches how to write fugues... I didn't know what kind of suggestion he was expecting. If it's for him, I think it would be interesting to give depth to the subject by breaking free from "obligations"; if it were for a teaching mission... ok, staying within the constraints, as you highlighted... I've already said my piece

Regarding what Frank says, quite rightly, I specify that this is a subject that has been discussed in class and since everything seems anything but obvious to me, I thought of proposing it as a (subject) for discussion. To tell the truth, I wouldn't even reject a priori the mutation after the first note (D D Eb rest Eb Ab G F# A D F# G), certainly the problem of harmonizing makes things clash a bit in any case proposed. The question, however, is aimed at finding the "scholastic" answer according to established rules.

Zedef wrote:

However, the question is aimed at finding the "scholastic" answer according to established rules.

... but the subject is not scholastic, so why insist on finding a scholastic answer? It's the same argument as with strictures; in an academic fugue, they must necessarily be included, but not all subjects are suited for it and serious composers know this.

It is up to whoever chooses to make the necessary considerations, in the sense that this subject is probably meant to be developed by people who have already done their time in school courses or at least completed the old middle school level... and are trying to do something more.

Doing something more means not following the academic model.

I find the discussion stimulating, but it cannot have constraints...

Why not treat it as a subject already entirely in re-? Because of the 2 key alterations?

As you can see, a nice workshop for 2014? We could use this Subject as a topic... obviously not after having closed the one we are already working on

In my opinion, without solid studies it is difficult to tackle this subject, especially in relation to the 18 hours. Obviously more time will be needed ...

In my opinion, Frank made the most honest point; whatever choice is made regarding the response will be confirmed at least by the exposition. Furthermore, the possibilities could be different and all musical; it is up to the composer's skill to find the best balanced solution between counterpoint, harmony, and "formal" choices.

For example, what has the author done to us with this subject?

A rather wicked subject, designed specifically to create problems! I hope it wasn't proposed during the examination...

Some of the solutions you have found seem convincing to me. I don't know if the Academy has a certain and unique answer.

The fact is that the Tonic's D is caught between the two opposing tensions of Eb and C#. In the abstract, the Eb-D of the subject would be reflected in an Bb-A of the response; the D-C#, by mutation, in a G-F# . It is impossible to have one's cake and eat it too.

My proposal is therefore not scholastic, but inventive. I resolve the Tonic's D, minim, into two descending eighth notes, A-G. To see "how it would end up", I continued for a couple of measures: the C-Eb at m. 4 of my countersubject mutates into F-Bb when it is reintroduced at m. 6.

As I was saying RedScharlach, non-academic subject ... non-academic answer

I too, like Zazzà, would like to know the original ... assuming that Zedef has it

Re re miiiiiib mib laaaaaaaaaaaaa b sol fa# la(beq) re fa# soooooool

or else

Re mi faaaaaa fa siiiiiiiib la sol# la re fa# soooool

The first thing I said is nonsense!

The original is in the Gedalge on p.xx (I won't say the page, maybe Zedef wants to play around with it a bit)

Well, I re-read previous posts and saw that the possibility with the initial B-flat was considered. (Thanks for galvanizing me, or forum)

You understood Zedef... I don't even remember where I put the Gedalge

Zedef, now it is "mandatory" that you participate in the next workshop on the fugue

http://www.pianoconc...orio-fuga-2013/

Deadline end of March... a nice way to invest the time gained from the Christmas break

It's a beautiful idea to have teachers who also challenge themselves with these subjects... I participated last year and had great benefits, it would be truly wonderful if you participated too.