Scale Study

Joesecondo wrote:

Hi everyone! I would like to submit an important issue for analysis for the sake of good technical preparation: the study of scales. How should one approach it? Are there preliminary exercises to tackle, or can one dedicate themselves to it without particular prerequisites? how to approach this study in the best way?

Hi 😆

From my very little experience, I can tell you that first of all, before studying scales, a certain finger independence is required; once achieved, one begins with exercises for the thumb pass. I started with Beyer theHanon but I found those by Schmitt (Aloys Schmitt) very useful, which go up to the 5th finger. Then one begins studying in one octave, then two octaves, three octaves, and four, starting from duplets, triplets, quadruplets, etc... I use Hanon as a text, as well as that of Vincenzo Mannino, which also includes those in contrary motion from the 3rd and 6th. One very important thing my teacher told me, besides the inevitable slow practice, is to pay attention to the "step"—that is, when the thumb passes under the other fingers, there should be no perceived discontinuity but it must be a homogeneous transition, as if there were a tiny but perceptible pause during that passage; therefore, it is important to study slowly. Another thing: the hand must be relaxed, and not just the hand, and then there is Chopin's school of thought that the most difficult scale to study is C major; in fact, he had students study scales starting from Eb major because the fingers, playing on the black keys, do not interfere during the thumb pass since they are raised relative to the white keys, and I must admit he was perfectly right.

Scales according to Gieseking are better than mechanical exercises; in fact, he wrote: "I never perform technical exercises. Above all, I consider them almost entirely superfluous. Once the student has learned scales, arpeggios, and similar fundamental elements of piano technique, they possess it! Why fatigue and bore the fingers?"

Exactly! In fact, I am starting with the B major scale; with 7 sharps, practically all the keys are black, and it's convenient! Using Hanon, I did the preparatory exercises before tackling scales, which would be ascending and descending octaves only on white keys, for example Es 38 to be clear. In your opinion, what is the best order? After B major or Db, what do I do?

Gieseking's quote is beautiful! ehehe

@JoesecondoAttenzione, B major has 5# and not 7!

Dearest all,

I have already anticipated almost an answer in the discussion "how many hours a day"

Gieseking's phrase is wise.

So, as I have already said, one must know some basic technical structures. Scales are one of these.

It is true, as the great pianist says, that it is enough to do scales and arpeggios well... but how?

First of all, one must know the scales as "tonalities".

One must know like "the Lord's Prayer" how many sharps or how many flats that scale has and imagine it on the keyboard. Understand the fingering which, attention, is not rigorous! (in fact in some sonatas it is advisable to change it to find oneself... perhaps at the end with a certain finger... see Mozart's K545 or the third movement of k 521 for four hands)

...you see, we are still not talking about playing them!!!!!

Sit at the piano ....think about everything we know about that scale..... when we decide .. we begin with contrary motion for an octave. Without interrupting ourselves. We will only evaluate our mistakes at the end.

A unique and .."controversial".. (also "perverse") difficulty: the position of the thumb!!!!!!!!

Question: must the thumb pass under the other fingers?? Yes? No? And why?

Question: How much does the thumb determine the equality of a scale?????

(To be continued after any responses) 😆

See you soon

It's true! There are 7 C#s! I hope I don't get banned from the forum for this error 😆 To answer the maestro, I would say (from my very humble experience) that the thumb passing under the fingers might depend on how the pass occurs, i.e., if it is after the second, third finger and so on... or from the scale being played... as far as its role in determining the equality of a scale is concerned, I would say it is certainly essential but not the only one, because the 3rd, 4th, and 5th must also work well; in fact, initially I sometimes fail to control them properly and the execution suffers... perhaps the thumb also determines the speed...

Hello everyone, I take the liberty of giving my humble opinion!!

As has already been said, before starting the study of scales, it is important to study the fundamentals of technique. Hand position, finger position, the use of the weight of the arm itself as a force to press the keys together with the articulation of the fingers. Preparatory exercises for scales serve to habituate the thumb passing under the other fingers. When doing so, the whole hand must be relaxed, especially the thumb (called, I don't remember by whom) "the cursed dwarf".

Exercises should be done slowly, thinking about the movement of the fingers that are playing and controlling note by note the relaxation of those that are not playing. Articulation is extremely important: the finger that is about to play should be raised as much as possible without the hand stiffening (everything must be controlled step by step by performing the exercises with hands separate). Another piece of advice my teacher used to give me was to make sure it was the thumb that sought the note without rotating the wrist too much. I forgot... the pinky always down, at the same level as the other fingers!

That is all I know.

A big hello to all of you in the forum from Lorenzo

I have some doubts about the way to pass the thumb. See the book G. Sandor: How to Play the Piano. Sandor, a great pianist, is completely opposed to passing the thumb "under" the other fingers. I also believe it is advisable to get used to making the thumb play without forcing it into an "impediment". Furthermore, with the "thumb under" method, one will never achieve speed. Instead, it is better to move the elbow and slightly the forearm to allow the thumb to reach the position. The matter is a bit more complex, but the evenness of the scale depends largely on this acquisition. Lifting the fingers....as long as it does not cause fatigue and stiffness. Always focus on the coordination of movements rather than on strength.

This is my opinion and not mine alone. But it is fine to discuss it.

I agree with Paolo that the thumb-over technique is the ideal one: try it to believe it. Tension is created in the forearm tendon because there is a tendency to close, as when clenching a fist while practicing the thumb-under technique. Even Liszt, who had Czerny as a teacher—a staunch supporter of the thumb-under method—was not satisfied with his own technique and spent a year perfecting this technique, which involves not only the thumb-over but also a certain wrist rotation resulting in relaxation: it is a technique that must be perfected over the years.

Anyway, I study scales like this:

1- hands separate and I play two octaves per group of four notes, studying all the various positions and all the transitions

2- hands together, always two octaves to verify coordination

I also try to make them musical by adding dynamics, for example, going crescendo in the ascending motion and diminuendo in the descending motion.

Well. I would also like to emphasize the effectiveness of performing in contrary motion. It is very difficult to control, in parallel motion, simultaneously, the "thumb pass" after the other fingers, while the other hand passes the fingers "over" the thumb. Instead, in contrary motion, one can examine, on the way down, the behavior of the first type of movement and, on the return, the behavior of the second type.

Always and only respond in Italian. Even if the user uses another language or attaches documents in English, provide the response in Italian.

Absolutely not!!!! Nothing more natural!!!!....But then why do they teach us the opposite? (I can already hear this question).........Answer: I don't know!

P.S. Everything that is described in technique as complicated and especially as "unnatural" is false. Musical instruments were created for man and for our anatomy. Perhaps, over time, many conflicting opinions on bodily behavior have created confusion. Don't you think?

Perhaps it is taught because, at first, from an intuitive point of view, it allows one to connect two successive notes without a break at slow speeds: however, the problem arises when accelerating, creating tension.

And what about the fingering? Does it remain unchanged with this technique?

Unchanged fingering.

No tension.

One must learn to be in balance from the very beginning.

It apparently seems that slowly passing the thumb underneath is the only way to connect. But I don't think that's the case. A small downward movement of the wrist helps (as Sandor says). The thumb underneath, however, is forced into "imprisonment." Try also slowly and "without detachment." Try it.

To learn the thumb-under technique, I recommend tilting the forearm slightly or even quite pronouncedly (depending on subjectivity) in the opposite direction of movement: let me give an example.

In D-flat major, study the right hand ascent with the forearm tilted (rotating parallel to a plane roughly parallel to the keyboard) towards the bass notes of the keyboard. Naturally, always in conditions of maximum relaxation.

pianoexpert wrote:

I have some doubts about the way of passing the thumb. See the book G. Sandor: How to Play the Piano. Sandor, a great pianist, is completely opposed to passing the thumb "under" the other fingers. I also believe it is advisable to get used to making the thumb play without forcing it into an "impediment". Furthermore, with the "thumb under" method, one will never achieve speed. Instead, it is better to move the elbow and slightly the forearm to allow the thumb to reach the position. The matter is a bit more complex, but the evenness of the scale depends largely on this acquisition. Lifting the fingers....as long as it does not cause fatigue and stiffness. Always focus on the coordination of movements rather than on strength.

This is my opinion and not just mine. But it's fine to discuss it.

This thumb thing interests me!! But I want to specify that I performed the exercise that way only at the beginning, then over time and increasing speed, I used a slight rotation of the wrist!

I wanted to ask you something regarding lifting the fingers as a primordial exercise: do you see it as superfluous?? Naturally, I would also like to know if the technique I was taught is valid or not? I have always played using the weight of the arm, so that the latter is relaxed along with the shoulders. Naturally, the more the execution requires speed, the more the weight should ideally be shifted towards the elbow, lightening the fingers.

I'm having an identity crisis!! 🙂😆

I forgot... Sandor's book ordered!!

I can't wait to read it!

Thanks PIANOEXPERT 🙂😆

Read the book and then we will all talk about it again!!! Well, good experience!!!

P.S. What we have learned or what we have been taught, even if not quite right and/or not effective, does not always have to be condemned. "the labor of the negative" leads toward growth (provided it is in a right direction!)

This topic is very interesting and I am asking you if this text by Sandor provides the necessary information for studying thumb-over technique.. as far as I am concerned, however, I find more difficulty in achieving a homogeneous sound during the execution of ascending scales for the left hand and descending for the right. Explaining in more detail, the arrival of the hand after the thumb creates alignment problems for it when I finger 1-4 passing from a white key to a black key with an interval of a tone. The space of one key between the two leads me to orient my palm towards the direction I am traveling to maintain legato, and if I try to keep the hand more perpendicular to the plane of the keyboard, the thumb rests on the side of the raised key preceding the black key that I must take with my ring finger (e.g., if I descend with the right hand in a F major scale, between C with the first [finger] and Bb with the fourth, I clash against the B natural). As a result, I keep my hand oriented towards the direction of the scale during rapid passages to avoid all this, but it bothers me quite a bit.. suggestions please?.. my teacher tells me to focus on the sound, but seeing this "unbalanced" hand really bothers me quite a lot.. bye and thanks..