Technical level.....mine...

Come, don't call it judgment!....otherwise it sounds like you're putting yourself on the scaffold! Here we all discuss things and give each other advice...

What are you studying at the moment?

fabio73 wrote:

What can I post

... a video of you playing?

Nice one Frank ahahahahah

What an ugly term "judgment" is, it reminds me of Terminator... Let's call them whatever you prefer among "updates, advice, tips, indications, opinions"!

I would start the way piano exams used to be done once... Now with the new regulations, I don't know what is actually done.

Why don't you post a nice video where you start with arpeggios, scales (for parallel, contrary, oblique motion, i.e., 2/3 and 3/2, thirds and sixths; I'll spare you double thirds and double sixths), scales for parallel double octaves and broken octaves (to see how you handle rotation), just to warm up, and let's see in the meantime how you behave with the basic elements of piano technique?

Then choose an étude; we don't know your level so I'll only give you some ideas (Czerny, Kramer, Chopin, Liszt, but also simple things—evaluate for yourself based on your level what to let us listen to, etc.).

I would certainly like to hear a piece by Bach to get an idea of how you handle polyphony.

A piece from the classical repertoire (perhaps a beautiful sonata by Mozart or Beethoven)—even just a first movement is enough, or the opening of an adagio if you don't want to play the whole thing.

Then I would move on to the romantic repertoire (Schumann, Chopin...), in short, whatever you have ready.

Lastly, if you have something virtuoso, that would be well received.

Practically, it is a simulation of an exam, so by doing this one can also understand how you manage stress.

You can also send us one part at a time; it's not like we have to give you a grade and for you it should be a pastime, not a job.

how demanding you are simone

But no, it's just a game among friends; here we are talking about pieces of our choice. In exams, one had to arrive with 24 preludes and fugues from The Well-Tempered Clavier, 23 Clementi studies, etc., but effectively if one thinks about it, why were the exam programs of the old system designed this way?

Scales, arpeggios, etc. for an assessment of the technique achieved.

Bach, to evaluate polyphonic thinking.

Mozart to evaluate the awareness of the classical style.

Chopin to evaluate the ability to synthesize a form of rubato different from that of the classical period without being saccharine; here too, we are talking about style.

Liszt to evaluate technical skills applied all together in composer's pieces.

If I were the president of a jury that has to express an opinion on an examinee, I would want to listen to at least these things to be able to form a complete idea.

Well, scales, arpeggios, etc. You can evaluate them in the rest of the program if you want, though.

TheSimon wrote:

But no, it's just a game among friends; here we are talking about pieces of choice. In exams, one had to arrive with 24 preludes and fugues from The Well-Tempered Clavier, 23 Clementi studies, etc., but effectively, if one thinks about it, why were the exam programs of the old system designed this way?

Scales, arpeggios, etc., for an assessment of the technique achieved.

Bach, to evaluate polyphonic thinking.

Mozart, to evaluate the awareness of the classical style.

Chopin, to evaluate the ability to synthesize a form of rubato different from that of the classical period without becoming saccharine; here too, we are talking about style.

Liszt, to evaluate technical skills applied all together in composer pieces.

If I were the president of a jury that had to express an opinion on an examinee, I would want to listen to at least these things to be able to form a comprehensive idea.

This post, which I like, perfectly embodies some of the interpretative deficiencies of our day. I would like to evaluate at least three other parameters:

- "improvisational" ability (I don't mean Jazz, but chance/aleatory elements)

- timbral management

- rhythmic management

And not without reason, names from the 20th century are missing from the list (3 would suffice)

But without these, in my opinion, an interpreter today cannot call themselves truly complete.

You are certainly right. I just don't understand what you mean by "timbral management." Because if by timbral management you mean the ability to vary the shape of a sound according to a musical need, then perhaps this falls under the matter of piano technique (using fundamental basic gestures consciously in function of the sound one wants to obtain).

TheSimon wrote:

You are certainly right. I just don't understand what you mean by "timbral management." Because if by timbral management you mean the ability to vary the shape of a sound according to a musical need, then perhaps this falls under the matter of pianistic technique (using fundamental basic gestures consciously in function of the sound one wants to obtain).

To be clear, performing a piece by Liszt, although complex from a million points of view, will never reach the rhythmic complexity of a piece by Messiaen... just to mention a great absentee from the list. But just as you see Bach as a polyphonic reference, I would like to hear an aspiring pianist play Messiaen as well (not that that's the end of it, but it is enough to get a good idea of a certain ability).

Sorry Simone, you were saying timbre.

Of course, true. But all the indicated lines of thought exclude the use, for example, of the damper pedal which requires a musical sensitivity and technical/interpretative ability aimed at other and different ways of sound emission ... no less than the unrestricted management (not just keyboard) of the instrument's sonic potential. Perhaps clearer. Therefore, Liszt might not be exhaustive nor even "complete" from the timbral point of view regarding the possibilities offered by the keyboard (glissandi, harmonics, etc.).

Ok, now it's clear. Certainly, if one thinks about the contemporary repertoire, then it is clear that a large portion of importance is also held by the, so to speak, "unconventional" use of the piano.

Regarding rhythmic management and improvisation, I understood perfectly what you were referring to.

sorry, but all these abilities that you would like to evaluate might not even be present at an initial level or, for many, even at an intermediate level....for tonal management but also rhythmic management, it can take years....a lifetime ......two....to arrive at grasping the right nuances....perhaps I wouldn't want you on the commission

unless I missed a piece and you already know that Fabio73 is a seasoned concert artist looking for an evaluation, I would first see a video of what he knows how to play and then, based on this, I would start looking for his limits and his skills. asking him to demonstrate that he has the ability to shape the sound based on interpretative needs if perhaps he is in a very initial phase of study seems premature to me...it is an ability that he will develop by continuing to play. Every level reached has limits that are overcome gradually and some requirements may not be immediately evaluable....p maybe I didn't understand the content of your messages and I apologize..

nancy wrote:

sorry, but all these abilities that you would like to evaluate might also not be present at an initial level or for many even at an intermediate level....

On the contrary no dear Nancy, it is precisely because of this that there are deficiencies. There are studies starting from the first year of piano dedicated to the development of improvisational ability and the use of timbre. It depends on the sensitivity of the teacher when trying to teach the student ... if I were you I would start to cultivate authors like Kurtag, you will realize that there is an ABC even for these aspects.

And besides, there is my first Chopin ... not by chance

TheSimon wrote:

so to speak, "unconventional" piano. 

I would rather say "unrestricted use" of the piano; after almost a century, I take it for granted that there is a hitch pin/bridge, that the piano can be prepared, etc., and one can also do very fun (to respond to another thread by fabio73) and ironic things. It depends on what the composer is looking for/wants.

Frank wrote:

On the contrary, no dear Nancy, it is precisely because of this that there are deficiencies. There are studies starting from the first year of piano dedicated to the development of improvisational ability and the use of timbre. It depends on the sensitivity of the teacher when they try to teach the student ... if I were you, I would start cultivating authors like Kurtag; you will realize that there is an ABC even for these aspects.

And besides, there is my first Chopin ... not by chance

in effect, how can I disagree with you...

unfortunately in my ABC these things were not there and therefore I learned them and am still learning them now....I'm going to study Kurtag

anyway, a veeeeery interesting discussion!!

You know.... I really understood you all... you didn't believe it, did you?

Nancy is the most motherly anyway... she immediately calmed me down and made me feel at ease... ha ha.. thank you.

Frank... damn... actually, even if your voice always inspires a bit of fear, I am in complete agreement... but come on!!, the prepared piano..... John Cage style.... incredible... I listened to some pieces on Rai radio.. consider that you are talking to the scoundrel who destroyed his piano strings (Alexander Hermann) by dint of putting drawing pins on the felts... well! I was 14 years old and in high school we were crazy about Gould and the harpsichord of Bach and Scarlatti.... good times.. and what a sound!!! Then one day a low Do lost its patience and... bam... a string almost flew into my face... just to say that my piano was always wide open like the windows of housewives at seven in the morning.. I am a bit tone-deaf to tell the truth..

To return to the discussion, (parenthesis... I would never want Simone on the commission) ...you really scared me... I'll trace my winding paths for you and then as soon as I can I swear I will post something but it has been 10 years since I played and after 5 years of fairly heavy naval carpentry I found myself like Czifra after his period as a stonebreaker... he had to undergo quite a long rehabilitation, poor guy... but not having his talent, I felt the blow quite hard... after all, however, certain difficulties also strengthen you and I expanded my musical horizons even during that period...

I started at 5/6 years old and was in kindergarten,,, I spent more time on the teacher's grand piano than in class. And in the end.... I began to play.

Provincial and blind teacher... many lost years, I arrived at playing Debussy, and Mozart, I remember K 545...

Interrupted around age 10, I loved replaying everything I heard from memory... even the Turkish March I picked up from a cassette if I'm not mistaken, it played Skoda... with the accordion... then checking the score... not a note was missing and there wasn't an error.

In high school I met a friend who played the piano and was actually doing some Bach and K 545... it revived an indescribable desire in me to continue and I made the mistake of going back to the old teacher... it took me only a few years to understand that I really wouldn't get anything out of it... in fact, I stopped and on the suggestion of a friend of mine, I went to a serious teacher.. 3 years and I prepared the 5th year.

I practically had to start from scratch. So already out of regulation with age... if I'm not mistaken I took the 5th year and I was 22 years old... in compensation I played six Chopin preludes... and for the rest everything went okay..... 9 in the romantic repertoire... 9 in melodic dictation from the year before etc... I muddied Bach a bit because I ended up with the three inventions... when I would have wanted an English suite instead... but it didn't come up in the draw... then I got Czerny's 41 and I performed it very well...

I immediately started preparing for the 8th year and so on, one after another: Beethoven, Schubert, Liszt, I had already prepared about ten preludes and ten fugues from The Well-Tempered Clavier but then.... my teacher's problems due to winning a competition... I went to one of his students for a period and then various work problems, mortgage, house etc.... and here I am realizing that I am losing ground every day. In these 10, now 15 years, in practice I have only read a lot but all in fragments and you won't believe it... if you ask me to play something.... I know nothing...

I am stuck to the sheet music like a fly to sticky paper...

The preparation, I think I have it, and in these years I believe I have improved a lot in listening to myself... which I think is fundamental for those who play but... before I really couldn't understand anything at all.

Now I would like to start again from where I left off.. at the time when I stopped. I was starting the study of Chopin's Op. 10 No. 1 and along with it I began studying arpeggios... or rather, I started them two months before....

I played in public only once before the "exam"... always with the sheet music in front of me...

Sorry for the length but this is the situation..

I hope to progress also with your support because unfortunately it seems that regarding music... no one cares anymore...

I'll tell you one thing Frank... with my teacher I had started a serious study of Bartok's Mikrokosmos and I found it incredible... we read up to volume 3 but wanted to go further... he was indeed a great master, cultured and intelligent..

So, as for contemporary music, I have nothing else.... although I think that Bartok by now.... is historicized... or not?

Thanks to everyone anyway... I'll post something as soon as I can.

P.s. I always have in mind the photo of Simone waiting for me dressed in white at the defendant's dock.... ha ha ha.."}

My profile picture inspires fear, doesn't it? Ahahahah, no actually I am kind. Anyway, let's do this: let us hear what you can prepare in a short amount of time and we will see how you are doing. As I have already said, and I will say again, one cannot expect to teach piano technique remotely. It can be discussed, but above all, in the early stages of practice, a Teacher is absolutely necessary. Here, at most, we can only give you some indications.

fabio73 wrote:

Frank... damn... actually, even if your voice always inspires a bit of fear, I am in complete agreement... but come on!!

Daniele is intimidated; you feel that my voice inspires a bit of fear... at the next gathering I will only speak after a dozen glasses of wine :D

Jokes aside

fabio73 wrote:

...but come on!!, the piano prepared .....à la John Cage

And no, it's like saying a fugue à la Bach. Not quite, if you hear what evolutions the fugue has had after Bach. Same for the preparation of the piano, even if Cage was one of the first (not the first); later the subject underwent its own evolution and surely today it is not experienced as an experiment or philosophical expression but as an expressive medium resulting from its own artistic research.

fabio73 wrote:

I'll tell you one thing Frank ...with my teacher I had started a serious study of Bartók's Mikrokosmos and I found it incredible... we read up to volume 3 but wanted to keep going... he, now, was a great master, cultured and intelligent..

As with everything else, you must distinguish technique from repertoire; in terms of teaching, Bartók, Kabalevsky, and Kurtág certainly don't hurt, on the contrary! For repertoire, there is an embarrassment of riches.

I must admit, however, that as I see deficiencies from an interpretative point of view ... I also see deficiencies from a didactic point of view and this is the fault of the composers; it is something I want to come to terms with as well. In effect, not many have taken care to leave didactic works, suitable for beginners, preparatory to help assimilate certain expressive means from the very beginning. There is something, but I feel it's not enough; I hope that sooner or later I will be able to contribute too (in my own small way) with some didactic work....who knows, in the future ...