Test of "analysis" of Melodies - Robert Schumann

Bell'idea Piccinesco

Just downloaded

Thanks, but for goodness' sake it is absolutely not my idea, others have been doing it for years before me on this and other forums, I am always late.

Like old times

I had started a Mozart symphony, as we often say: "it's also good to get one's hands dirty..."

Mine are "new" times that I don't know how long they will last

to me the harmonic analysis seems full of inaccuracies, forgive me Piccinesco, but I have to say it; moreover, I am not exempt from errors when talking about harmony, in fact...

For now I cannot stop to correct everything, I have to go out, but unless someone beats me to it, I swear I will comment on everything later.

I'll only mention a few things: the eighth-note figuration of the accompaniment is typical of the piano, they are all broken arpeggios, let's say, so it is useless and counterproductive to analyze one eighth at a time... you created most of the problems this way; then, all these inverted third degrees, where do you see them? :-) and the leaps and resolutions... most of them are non-existent concepts in "real" harmony

Piccinesco wrote:

Harmonic analysis of the first two measures:

The composition begins in C major; in the 2nd beat of measure 1, the F on the lower staff

could be a 6 IV or perhaps the D on the upper staff functions as an appoggiatura; I say this because the F is a neighbor note, whereas the triad of the 1st degree of C major is quite distinct.

So, as I mentioned, in these situations of two notes (in the bass) against one (in the melody), one tends to consider an

overall harmony formed by the two notes of the bass and that of the melody. And reading it this way, at the second beat of meas. 1 we have an F, a G, and a D, so probably a

doninant harmony with the seventh. If you further notice the entire configuration of the bass, the G is used as a pedal, so that F does not resolve on the G but on the subsequent E... therefore, I consider the second beat of meas. 1 as V2.

The 3rd beat equally contemplates the I degree of C with the addition of B,

... eh? The B is on the fourth beat. The third beat is a split I6.

given the

descending movement, resolving the VII degree, in this case the leading tone, it can be understood as the I degree rather than a 6 III (I am always talking about the 3rd beat).

the chord on the III is extremely rare, and almost always in first inversion, let's not bother with it... the B is on the fourth beat, I consider it a seventh on the I.

At the beginning of measure 2, the F is present on the lower staff, IV degree; however, halfway through the 1st beat, the D on the lower staff and the C on the upper staff suggest a 6_5 IV, so a first inversion with a 7th on the IV of C major (moreover, the C resolves on the B), or else the C is another appoggiatura.

In the 3rd beat we have a 6 III with D as an extraneous note, which in this case functions as a neighbor note that rises to the E of measure 3.

you are making too many problems... D-F-A-C is a perfectly normal dominant of the dominant; always considering a chord every QUARTER, not every eighth, which would be excessive in this case. G-B-D-F is a V7 that resolves to an I6, which, with upper and lower neighbor notes, lasts two quarters... here too, the III would make no sense...

Harmonic analysis of measures 3 and 4:

Here the "strange" aspect is that it passes from a 6 III from the middle of measure 2 to a 5 III of measure 3.

it's so strange that it makes no sense
the G continues to be a pedal. But even if it were always part of the

harmony, in the first beat of measure 3 you would only have TWO notes of the harmony. And then common sense tells you that it makes no sense to choose a triad on the third degree... choose an I 6 without the root. Then a V 43, then a perfectly normal I and an I6.

Anyway, in the 2nd beat if the G can be understood as "taken by leap", the D justifies the F on the upper staff as the VII of the V of C major, or it is simply a II of C with the G as an extraneous note, or as I wrote, the F is an appoggiatura, but the "doubt" remains regarding the G taken by leap, which doesn't seem improbable to me.

let everyone listen carefully.

THE RULES OF BASS HARMONIZATION ARE NOT THE RULES OF HARMONY. Sevenths taken "by leap" are the norm.

In the 3rd beat, the figure from measure 1 is repeated on the lower staff, this time without extraneous notes or the VII of C major. It could already be understood as the IV of G major, since in measure 4 the D is present on the lower staff, but here one should understand that D as a 6_4 II and subsequently the C of the 2nd beat as appoggiaturas to the D, which forms a triad precisely on the V degree of G major; the F# confirms this. Following that, a 6 III with the G in the last beat of the measure.

you would do better to write directly what it is rather than what it isn't or what it could be.

The modulation begins unequivocally when ... begins unequivocally :-) in our case, the greater unequivocality lies in the arrival of the F#, although a very strong suggestion is given by the chord on the first beat of meas. 4, that G major in second inversion. The second inversion of the triad occurs almost only in cadence, and we are talking about a tonic triad. Therefore, the fourth measure is all a cadence to G. On the second beat, once again, that C is more likely a seventh, and it is the D, rather, that can be understood as an escaped note.

Let's just say I'll remove the other quotes...

So, the next measures are ambiguous. In this case, look for the cadence with your eyes. The first visible cadences are at meas. 8 and meas. 9, and the bass movement is CLEARLY II-V-I. This means that from meas. 9 we will return to C, but it also means that before meas. 9 the tonality is only suggested, not affirmed. What elements do we see? We see an F that is sometimes sharp and sometimes not. We see a movement"}

descending melodic line in both the bass and the melody, fa mi re do si, with FA RE and SI on the strong beats and the usual sol pedal. It cannot be G major, there is a natural F on the strong beat... it cannot be G minor, there is a natural B.

So what? We are STILL in C! And this is a dominant pedal :-) meaning, ALL the measures are V-I-V-I...

thallo wrote:

so, as I was mentioning, in these situations of two notes (in the bass) against one (in the soprano), one tends to consider an overall harmony formed by the two notes of the bass and that of the melody. And reading it this way, on the second beat of m. 1 we have an F, a G, and a D, so probably a dominant harmony with the seventh. If you further notice the entire configuration of the bass, the G is used as a pedal, so that F does not resolve on the G but on the following E... therefore, I consider the second beat of m. 1 as V2.

Ok, I always have doubts when I try to do these "analyses" which a true master is skilled at complicating, but precisely because I don't trust (at least as far as I am concerned) such a quick analysis,

I mean that I rightly have doubts because I have done four-part exercises in old clefs, but the teacher had warned me that piano writing (which I have not yet reached) holds further difficulties and particulars that need to be well understood.

... eh? The B is on the fourth beat. The third beat is a split I6

Indeed, I wrote it as 6 III (I write it this way), but I also (if you notice) put a 7 I in parentheses, but I didn't know if I should intend that B

as VII resolving on the following A; that is why I proposed two "solutions."

the chord on III is extremely rare, and almost always in first inversion, let's not bother with it... the B is on the fourth beat, I consider it a seventh on the I .

In fact, that is why it seemed strange to me (I am talking about the III in root position).

you are making too many problems... D-F-A-C is a perfectly normal dominant of the dominant, always considering an chord every QUARTER, not every eighth, which would be excessive in this case. G-B-D-F is a V7 that resolves to an I6, which, with upper and lower neighbor notes, lasts two quarters... even here, the III would make no sense...

Even here, I placed the ? at the VII, always these damn doubts, I was right to think of that VII, so as you say a seventh on the II of C, dominant of the dominant; I started from the assumption that since it is a piece from the Romantic period there were things I didn't know regarding harmony, which is why 400 possibilities pop out.

it's so strange that it makes no sense
the G continues to be a pedal. But even if it were always part of the harmony, on the first beat of measure 3 you would only have TWO notes of the harmony. And then common sense tells you that it makes no sense to choose a triad on the third degree... choose an I6 without the root. Then a V43, then a perfectly normal I and an I6.

There, that repeated G (I didn't have the courage, believe me, to define it as a pedal; I have never reached that point in harmony, but having heard this term used several times

to define a sustained note, even if interrupted by rests, I must admit that I had thought of it, but I wanted to limit the nonsense, or the bullshit if you prefer).

may everyone listen carefully.

THE RULES OF BASS HARMONIZATION ARE NOT THE RULES OF HARMONY. Sevenths taken "by leap" are the norm.

Here is another mess being added; see, I thought correctly saying that the D jumped to G, but I didn't trust my own assumption; I was right from this point of view,

I couldn't be sure of something I didn't know.

you would do better to write directly what it is rather than what it isn't or what it could be.

The modulation begins unequivocally when ... it begins unequivocally :-) in our case, the greater unambiguity comes from the arrival of F#, even if a very strong suggestion is given by the chord on the first beat of m. 4, that G major in second inversion. The second inversion of the triad occurs almost only in cadence, and we are talking about a tonic triad. So, the fourth measure is all a cadence to G. On the second beat, once again, that C is more likely a seventh, and it is the D, rather, that can be understood as an escaped note.

Ok, in fact the presence of the tonic's second inversion presupposes what you say.

Let's say I remove the other quotes...

So, the next measures are ambiguous. In this case, look for the cadence with your eyes. The first visible cadences are at m. 8 and m. 9, and the bass movement is CLEARLY II-V-I. This means that from m. 9 we will return to C, but it also means that before m. 9 the tonality is only suggested, not affirmed. What elements do we see? We see an F that is sometimes sharp and sometimes not. We see a descending melodic movement in both the bass and the soprano, F-E-D-C-B, with F, D, and B on the strong beats and the usual pedal G. G major cannot be it, there is the natural F on the strong beat... G minor cannot be it, there is the natural B.

And so? We are STILL in C! And this is a dominant pedal :-) that is, ALL"

the measures are V-I-V-I...

Clear, thanks.

the main problem, then, lies in the fact that if you haven't studied harmony and analysis, you can't do harmonic analysis; it's perfectly fine to just dive in, anyway, on the forum you won't kill anyone and you can write whatever you want

As far as harmony is concerned, I still need to deepen my knowledge of progressions; I haven't "practiced" analysis often. The doubts arise mainly because I have worked on 4-part exercises for voices specifically,

and not for piano as in this case; the insecurity makes me go and scrutinize every single thing, raising further doubts.