The Concerto From a Compositional Point of View

WAM wrote:

Ok guys, I didn't think I would start a discussion in these terms, which, moreover, I find very interesting.

Let's do this: getting practical, if you wanted to write your own concerto, how would you approach it?

Deep knowledge of the repertoire, analysis of it, abstraction of the formal and musical characteristics of what interests me, writing the concerto within the identified formal and musical model... obviously with my own harmonic signature

Lucas wrote:

If you ask someone where they studied fugue, everyone remembers where, the same goes for harmony, for orchestration ... and on form...?... nothing...

But «on form» what? excuse me... Form is a thousand things. That's why it is difficult to find a text "on form". Charles Rosen wrote Sonata Forms (now Edt) and that is a text that addresses, as the title suggests, the evolution of that form, not form tout court. Anyway, you asked me where I had found the expression "symphonic genre", and I told you that I don't know - but perhaps I haven't found it anywhere, or everywhere: let's just say that when you are clear about what you are talking about, it is easy to speak "in your own words" without confusing, for example, form with genre etc etc...

For Lucas: there is no section for the concerto for solo instrument and you will hardly find it: it is an amplification of the sonata form with the addition of the orchestra.

WAM wrote:

Ok guys, I didn't think I would give rise to a discussion in these terms, which I also find very interesting.

Let's do this, getting practical, if you wanted to write your own concerto, how would you approach it?

First of all, decide on the orchestra and also decide how to distribute the forces in the field.

Then it is the same procedure I would use with the sonata, but this is personal ... there are those who write the themes first, and then develop, those who immediately write exposition and development and then move on to the rest etc.

Carlos wrote:

Form is a thousand things.

Yes, I read Gerardo's post

Carlos wrote:

Because of that, it is difficult to find a text "on form".

From what I have read, there are many, even specific ones for the concert... I need to get it, study it, and then I will be able to resume the discussion.

Carlos wrote:

senza confondere, ad esempio, forma con genere etc etc...

We had already marked it, as a paragraph title; it is probably a loanword from the Italian language. We should eventually report it to Savasta... you never know if he might make another edition.

rstrauss wrote:

it is an amplification of the sonata form with the addition of the orchestra.

Is Berg's Violin Concerto in an expanded sonata form?

Is Berio's concerto for two pianos and orchestra in an expanded sonata form?

Natan wrote:

Deep knowledge of the repertoire, analysis thereof, abstraction of the formal and musical characteristics of what interests me, writing the concerto within the identified formal and musical model ... obviously with my own harmonic signature

Taking inspiration from tradition "makes" [sense], but it is also true that today a musician has a duty to "invent" something. If one truly wanted to start from the sonata, I would abstract its "logic" to propose my own formal structures, perhaps not unprecedented (certainly), but ones that do not slavishly emulate the logic of a bygone era.

A question like this seems too generic to me; substantially, much is missing. A concerto on its own today means nothing if we want to talk about its evolution ... just say it, but:

WAM wrote:

Does anyone want to try their hand at touching upon the concerto? I mean from a compositional point of view.

Exactly, which one? From what era? Do we mean the concerto today?... and in fact:

WAM wrote:

Let's do this: moving to the practical side, if you wanted to write your own concerto, how would you approach it?

This question excludes all sorts of textbook instruction. Simply because manuals speak of what has already happened; a theorist observes, studies the repertoire, and provides their own interpretation by speaking precisely of formal schemes.

But here we are talking about the Haydn of the moment (but today) writing a concerto.

What theory book comes from this suggestion? It depends on the artist's sensibility, knowing the past, making their choices... perhaps then the manual can be a means to know the past. But the question reads: "how would you approach (today, it is implied, since we are alive) this subject?"

That is how I read it, and anyway, there seems to be a conflict between the questions, and inevitably, one cannot understand each other in the answers.

Effectively, reading your comments, I realized that perhaps the question was asked somewhat clumsily, or rather, I like how the discussion has evolved. Perhaps I wasn't able to formulate it correctly. I don't know now, I'll try again.

Certainly, a historical overview wouldn't hurt, but then, in plain terms, I would like to understand if tomorrow you wanted to work on your own project and propose your music in these terms, how would you approach this subject?

Lucas wrote:

Is Berg's violin concerto is an expanded sonata form?

Is Berio's concerto for two pianos and orchestra an expanded sonata form?

Here we are speaking in general terms and we are talking about the classical concerto ... it is clear that the further you go, the more the sonata form is disregarded or its rules are pulverized ... remember that here we are not talking about a precise era but we are trying to frame the 'Concerto' form.

WAM wrote:

Actually, reading your comments, I realized that perhaps the question was asked in a somewhat clumsy way, or rather, I like how the discussion has evolved. Perhaps I wasn't able to formulate it correctly. I don't know now, let me try again.

A historical overview certainly doesn't hurt, but then, in plain terms, I would like to understand if tomorrow you wanted to work on your own project and propose your music in these terms, how would you approach this subject?

I'm not saying you have to do as Mozart did, who already had everything in his head and the notes on paper were like those famous fly sh...s above and below the lines (just to quote the film) ... but ...

- The basic idea and especially how you want to develop the piece must already be in your head. Let's say that just as an architect conceives a construction in broad outlines, the musician conceives the piece they want to write in large blocks.

- Then there is the orchestra: what role do you want to give it? Do you want it subordinate to the soloist, or should it have an integral or even preponderant part?

- You will then have to decide on the key: which one best suits what you want to write and the solo instrument?

- How many movements do you want to write?

- Which form to adopt—and I mean any form, as long as it is balanced.

I don't proclaim myself a master of the 'Concerto', but I have been able to observe that these 5 small rules provide a fairly broad vision of what one wants to do ... even if in the end they represent more or less 10-15% of the work B)

now only the music is missing ...

this is what I would do, but others might do differently and it would be interesting to hear those opinions as well.

rstrauss wrote:

this is what I would do, but others might do differently and it would be interesting to hear those opinions as well.

For example, for Donatoni the form was not predetermined; in his language, it was the material that commanded, so his compositions are a continuous becoming... and there are many of his pieces "comparable" to the classical (in the strict sense) concerto.

Gerardo wrote:

For example, for Donatoni the form was not predetermined; in his language, it was the material that commanded, so his compositions are a continuous becoming... and there are many of his pieces "comparable" to the classical (in the strict sense) concerto.

Can you give a couple of examples?

Just looking at the 2 violin pieces is enough

Do you mean Argot? It would never have occurred to me... especially because it is a dittico for solo violin! Nothing could be further from my idea of a "classical concerto"! I thought rather you were referring to Puppenspiel no. 2, or Le ruisseau sur l'escalier (both being anything but "classical concertos"!).

... besides, we are what we listen to.